T&G with Record 50 Combination Plane

[Wylie2112]

Hello, again!

First real tool/technique question here. I'm trying to use a Record 50 to tongue and groove some cherry boards to join them together to make the selving and carcase of a bookcase. Part of the reason for doing it this way is just to learn the skill of using handtools, rather than try to do it with a powertool. But I've run into a problem. I don't have the facility to post photos at the moment so I'll try to describe the problem.

With the two-bladed tongue attachment, the right-side blade creates a chip that feeds straight up into a cut-out in the skate body, rather than curling off to the side. The blade interferes with the chip-deflector attachment point so I can't fit it to deflect the chip out of the cutout. The chip, more of a strip really, eventually packs intself into the cutout in the skate body to the point where it jams the blade and prevents it contacting the wood any more. I can get about a 12" stroke before I have to clear out the chip with a screwdriver or something similar and it really jams in there quite hard even after that small amount of travel.

Does anyone here have any successful experience of T&Ging with a Record 50 and, if so, any ideas on how to solve this problem? It's brought work on my first project to a halt until I can find a way around this.

Many, many thanks!

Shawn

 

[Alf]

Naturally a Record 050 of any age is the one combi I don't have any more #-o However, looking at the manual I'm reminded fitting the chip deflector correctly is a bit of an art - dunno whether you have the instructions and have already tried that, but if not it might help (page 4).

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Hi Shawn, welcome to UK Workshop!

As Alf says, the chip deflector is used to force chips from getting stuck in the body. At least in theory. Works most of the time.

Take care, Mike

 

[Wylie2112]

Right, just reread the manual. Thanks, Alf. I'd been trying to install it after the blade was in place. Must try it the other way.

On the depth of the T&G, is there a rule of thumb based on ratio against the thickness of the board? Or is there some other way of getting the depth of the tongue right?

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Paul Chapman]

Just a thought, Shawn, if you are having trouble cutting the tongues. As an alternative, you could cut a groove in both boards and fit a loose plywood tongue. In fact it would probably be stronger. You would, of course, need to find some plywood the same thickness as one of your cutters (or very slightly thinner) - or by adjusting the cutter, make the groove a little wider.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

 

[Wylie2112]

Paul,

Good point. I hadn't actually thought of that and it might solve the problem if I can't get the chip deflector in. Thanks!

Shawn

 

[Anonymous]

I've had that problem too with that blade.

I don't know how well the deflector works since I've never owned it.

It just seems too tight an area to deflect anyway. Suspect it not a good plane for this sort of cut.....

The main problem I feel is the skates aren't high enough....unlike the stanley 45 for instance, which has deeper skates, which gives more room for the shavings.

I feel the best way to tongues by hand plane is with the old woodies anyway. There easily trued, and they depth out the cut better, because the entire length of the body is essentially the depth stop......with those combination blades you've only got that little gizmo thing to cut to depth, which may mean your cut isn't depthed properly at the start of the cut (when this gizmo isn't contanting the wood)

The only things the woodies can't do I suppose is change fence setting.

Goodluck with it. Personally wouldn't use that blade though with your 50. Think its too much of a novelty. But thats just me.

 

[Alf]

To be honest I'd probably do as Paul suggests too. Not because the T&G cutter doesn't work, but simply 'cos with T&G you loose your accurately (hopefully!) jointed edge on the tongue piece which always struck me as a bit daft.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

Right, just reread the manual. Thanks, Alf. I'd been trying to install it after the blade was in place. Must try it the other way.

On the depth of the T&G, is there a rule of thumb based on ratio against the thickness of the board? Or is there some other way of getting the depth of the tongue right?

Cheers,
Shawn

Tongue should be roughly square, and a leeeetle shallower than the groove. That way the boards will always go together so that the shoulder of the groove piece go fully "home".

Trying to make the tongue EXACTLY the depth of the groove is needlessly ambitious.

I learnt this lesson when making a housed, rebated bottom for a box.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest I'd probably do as Paul suggests too. Not because the T&G cutter doesn't work, but simply 'cos with T&G you loose your accurately (hopefully!) jointed edge on the tongue piece which always struck me as a bit daft.

Cheers, Alf

I'm not sure what you mean Alf ?

You really need a jointed edge to begin the tongue cut I would have thought, else the skates don't engage well from the beginning.

Have you managed to get that cutter going well with that deflector thing ? How does it sit to deflect the shaving from this cutter ?

I get the 50 going all right without the deflector, but the shavings quickly jam up badly.

 

[Anonymous]

Right, just reread the manual. Thanks, Alf. I'd been trying to install it after the blade was in place. Must try it the other way.

On the depth of the T&G, is there a rule of thumb based on ratio against the thickness of the board? Or is there some other way of getting the depth of the tongue right?

Cheers,
Shawn

Tongue should be roughly square, and a leeeetle shallower than the groove. That way the boards will always go together so that the shoulder of the groove piece go fully "home".

Trying to make the tongue EXACTLY the depth of the groove is needlessly ambitious.

I learnt this lesson when making a housed, rebated bottom for a box.

BugBear

I agree. The exception I suppose is when you want the joint to disappear when viewed from the end grain. But that doesn't happen much though I suppose.

In that case, I'd say be easier to adjust the plough cut depth to the tongue rather than the other way around.....just creep up onto a tight fit uno.

There's another way to consider maybe, if that tongue cutters jam problems bothering too much.... forget it.....do like Paul says, or just cut the tongue with a rebate plane. Assuming of course the timbers grains tollerating enough to handle planing both directions.......uno, with the same plane rebate one side to depth, flip and rebate the other side to form the tongue.......combine that with your plough...

so you'd make a test tongue on a bit of scrap......check for square etc.....then creep the plough to depth on scrap too, as you get close, literally check the two scraps for fit, until your spot on......When I say 'creep', I mean you make slight adjustments to your depth stops. Each time the depth is reached and the plane stops cutting check for fit, If still not deep enough, tap (or turn) that stop up ever so slightly, plane again etc on and on. until the perfect setting is reached.

Tighten up those depth stop real hard (plyers even) :lol: .....don't want any fence or depth stop slips.... definetly not. spoil your day. But once those settings are found your set and you can rip off plenty of T&G's quickly.

Really feel you have to joint those edges well first, else the depth stops may rub off different height..ie. the shoulders of the tongue will cut wrong. Could all look a little skew wiff. Thats whats happened to me anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

To be honest I'd probably do as Paul suggests too. Not because the T&G cutter doesn't work, but simply 'cos with T&G you loose your accurately (hopefully!) jointed edge on the tongue piece which always struck me as a bit daft.

Cheers, Alf

I'm not sure what you mean Alf ?

Sorry, Jake - not my best bit of descriptive prose and I don't think it's going to get any better... I meant that the action of forming the tongue removes the clean planed edge and you're having to rely on the T&G cutter to do a clean job of the finished edge on the tongue piece. A similar argument is used in favour of loose tenons I think.

Have you managed to get that cutter going well with that deflector thing ? How does it sit to deflect the shaving from this cutter ?

Unfortunately I can't remember (been a few years since I foolishly sold mine) and in fact I may never have even used the deflector thinking about it. One of the penalties of the wide range of combi planes from which to choose.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Frank D.]

... the action of forming the tongue removes the clean planed edge and you're having to rely on the T&G cutter to do a clean job of the finished edge on the tongue piece. A similar argument is used in favour of loose tenons I think.

Unless you go with the chamfered edge look. I haven't seen much T&G around here without the chamfer (V-groove). If you want to simply glue the pieces together for a seamless joint, why bother using tongue and groove at all? Could it be for better alignment or more glue surface? Seems a lot of work for little gain(?)

 

[Alf]

It can be a right PITA for a beaded T&G though.

 

[Frank D.]

Oh yeah that's right Alf. I knew I was missing something...

 

[Alf]

Well it was a fair point; thinking about it how many people bother to make beaded T&G these days?

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

OK. I made the boys step away from the large bench to play a little. Tried a couple things. First, let me say that I just received this 050 a few weeks ago. I have only played with it. I have used both a Stanley 45/55 to do T&Gs, beads, etc before.

First, the chip deflector on mine fits as long as it is put in place before the T&G cutter as per the manual. But it is a pita to insert the cutter.

So I tried it without the deflector. Very light setting for the first few passes and then deepened the cutter as per my usual madness.

I also added a bead. I don't like the width of the inboard quirk for the beading cutters, so I will grind them down a little like I did on my other metal plows. And do note that the way I use to make beaded T&Gs is that I would plow a slight rebate on the mating piece to match the quirk on the inside of the bead. But like I said, the quirk is too fat.

After the first couple passes and I made the shaving thick, the shavings would curl up in the body a little, but subsequent ones pushed the previous ones out. This board is about 24" in length.

The 050 was a snap to set up and use. I really like the little thing. Nice balance of weight and feel. I need to add a secondary fence yet, but the thing works nice. For my work, much nicer than my 45 for sure--I do miss my 55, though.

Take care, Mike

 

[Alf]

I don't like the width of the inboard quirk for the beading cutters, so I will grind them down a little like I did on my other metal plows.

Gott in himmel! I'm sitting here feeling like the world's biggest twit - why the **** did that never even occur to me?! ](*,) Thank you, Mike - I may even forgive you the OMG thread for that :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

I don't like the width of the inboard quirk for the beading cutters, so I will grind them down a little like I did on my other metal plows.

Gott in himmel! I'm sitting here feeling like the world's biggest twit - why the **** did that never even occur to me?! ](*,) Thank you, Mike - I may even forgive you the OMG thread for that :wink:

Cheers, Alf

I make the inboard quirks about 1/2 to 2/3 of stock width. I made one a bit less once and it wasn't strong enough and, iirc, the skate on the 55 was exactly the same width and so made it where I needed to be careful when adjusting the depth as the cutter would move over a little. a real pita. But it doesn't take much to make it look so much nicer.

Now when was I going to update the OMG thread? ... :lol:

Take care, Mike