Surely a huge gap in the market?

[Joe1975]

Dear All,

Am I the only one looking for some quality small machines for working in a limited space. I want them to be well made, be under 15kgs so they can be lifted easily onto a worksurface when required, and have dust extraction that attaches to a vaccum cleaner such as Henry. They need to be able to handle most timber sizes that a hobbiest woodworker would use. The market seems to be totally lacking. This is what I'm specifically looking for;

1) A thicknesser that can cope with timber about 6-8" wide and up to about 3" thick (can't find anything between the proxxon DH40 (6kg) which looks brilliant but just too small (80mm x 40mm max) and all other thicknessers that weight about 30kgs and are too big and heavy.
2) A Jointer/Surface Planer about 6" wide (the Triton TSPL152 look promissing but could do without the handles and is still a bit heavy to be lifting frequently at 20kgs), doesn't look like a quality item either. Haven't seen much else.
3) A Table Saw with perhaps a 6" blade that would be capable of 50mm cuts (sort of like a circular saw but made into a table saw). My 18v circular saw has plenty of power and can cut deep enough but need the aligning fence and accuracy etc. of a table saw.
4) A very accurate Mitre Saw, again perhaps with a six inch 80 tooth blade, that can cut maybe 120mm widths and 50mm depths.

Perhaps they could be in the same range with the surface heights being the same, so outfeed surfaces could be easily made/purchased to cope with longer timber. They could all share the same footprint so that it would be easy to prepare a station or stand that could be used for all. They would be designed so that they can easily be clamped to a worksurface. They would have the quietest motors avaliable, share the same power leads and dust extraction ports so that they could be easily left in place. The thicknesser and Jointer/Planer could share the same type of blades, as could the Table Saw and the Mitre Saw, so keep a spare or a range of blades would be much more economical.

Am I out on a limb here, or are there loads of fairly serious hobiest woodworkers, with limited space and finances, who are not trying to build walnut tables to seat 12 people, but want to be able to process their timber and work to a high degree of accuracy.

Is it time to set up a new company?!

PS: I have seen plenty of planer thicknessers that sell for £200-300 and look nasty, are fidly to swap between functions, and are clearly not quality tools. Not interested in this market either.

 

[bourbon]

Go for it, with your new company. Then you will know WHY there aren't any on the market.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Looking forward to seeing you on Dragons Den

 

[johnnyb]

I recall, after reading how impressive spiral blocks were mentioning it on here. It was universally dismissed. To be fair it took a couple of years and axminster to source one at a reasonable price to bite. The real reason no such machines are sold is simply because the American Market don't want such small machines. Nobody's producing machines for this countries quality hobby machines.

 

[Stigmorgan]

I would imagine it will be very difficult to impossible to get the size and quality you want at the weights you want.

 

[Jameshow]

Dear All,

Am I the only one looking for some quality small machines for working in a limited space. I want them to be well made, be under 15kgs so they can be lifted easily onto a worksurface when required, and have dust extraction that attaches to a vaccum cleaner such as Henry. They need to be able to handle most timber sizes that a hobbiest woodworker would use. The market seems to be totally lacking. This is what I'm specifically looking for;

1) A thicknesser that can cope with timber about 6-8" wide and up to about 3" thick (can't find anything between the proxxon DH40 (6kg) which looks brilliant but just too small (80mm x 40mm max) and all other thicknessers that weight about 30kgs and are too big and heavy.
2) A Jointer/Surface Planer about 6" wide (the Triton TSPL152 look promissing but could do without the handles and is still a bit heavy to be lifting frequently at 20kgs), doesn't look like a quality item either. Haven't seen much else.
3) A Table Saw with perhaps a 6" blade that would be capable of 50mm cuts (sort of like a circular saw but made into a table saw). My 18v circular saw has plenty of power and can cut deep enough but need the aligning fence and accuracy etc. of a table saw.
4) A very accurate Mitre Saw, again perhaps with a six inch 80 tooth blade, that can cut maybe 120mm widths and 50mm depths.

Perhaps they could be in the same range with the surface heights being the same, so outfeed surfaces could be easily made/purchased to cope with longer timber. They could all share the same footprint so that it would be easy to prepare a station or stand that could be used for all. They would be designed so that they can easily be clamped to a worksurface. They would have the quietest motors avaliable, share the same power leads and dust extraction ports so that they could be easily left in place. The thicknesser and Jointer/Planer could share the same type of blades, as could the Table Saw and the Mitre Saw, so keep a spare or a range of blades would be much more economical.

Am I out on a limb here, or are there loads of fairly serious hobiest woodworkers, with limited space and finances, who are not trying to build walnut tables to seat 12 people, but want to be able to process their timber and work to a high degree of accuracy.

Is it time to set up a new company?!

PS: I have seen plenty of planer thicknessers that sell for £200-300 and look nasty, are fidly to swap between functions, and are clearly not quality tools. Not interested in this market either.

Sounds like the kity combi machine...


I remember a more modern combi machine that fitted the spec was about 3x2' floor area the name escapes me!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A very accurate Mitre Saw, again perhaps with a six inch 80 tooth blade, that can cut maybe 120mm widths and 50mm depths?

I await your design eagerly.

 

[RobinBHM]

Dear All,

Am I the only one looking for some quality small machines for working in a limited space. I want them to be well made, be under 15kgs so they can be lifted easily onto a worksurface when required, and have dust extraction that attaches to a vaccum cleaner such as Henry. They need to be able to handle most timber sizes that a hobbiest woodworker would use. The market seems to be totally lacking. This is what I'm specifically looking for;

1) A thicknesser that can cope with timber about 6-8" wide and up to about 3" thick (can't find anything between the proxxon DH40 (6kg) which looks brilliant but just too small (80mm x 40mm max) and all other thicknessers that weight about 30kgs and are too big and heavy.
2) A Jointer/Surface Planer about 6" wide (the Triton TSPL152 look promissing but could do without the handles and is still a bit heavy to be lifting frequently at 20kgs), doesn't look like a quality item either. Haven't seen much else.
3) A Table Saw with perhaps a 6" blade that would be capable of 50mm cuts (sort of like a circular saw but made into a table saw). My 18v circular saw has plenty of power and can cut deep enough but need the aligning fence and accuracy etc. of a table saw.
4) A very accurate Mitre Saw, again perhaps with a six inch 80 tooth blade, that can cut maybe 120mm widths and 50mm depths.

Perhaps they could be in the same range with the surface heights being the same, so outfeed surfaces could be easily made/purchased to cope with longer timber. They could all share the same footprint so that it would be easy to prepare a station or stand that could be used for all. They would be designed so that they can easily be clamped to a worksurface. They would have the quietest motors avaliable, share the same power leads and dust extraction ports so that they could be easily left in place. The thicknesser and Jointer/Planer could share the same type of blades, as could the Table Saw and the Mitre Saw, so keep a spare or a range of blades would be much more economical.

Am I out on a limb here, or are there loads of fairly serious hobiest woodworkers, with limited space and finances, who are not trying to build walnut tables to seat 12 people, but want to be able to process their timber and work to a high degree of accuracy.

Is it time to set up a new company?!

PS: I have seen plenty of planer thicknessers that sell for £200-300 and look nasty, are fidly to swap between functions, and are clearly not quality tools. Not interested in this market either.

High accuracy and repeatable are features that require precision engineering and expensive components

You can have light and cheap and inaccurate

Or you can have heavy, expensive, accurate

You can’t have both

Take a 6” surface planer, if you want precision you need cast iron tables 60” long, a heavy fence. Think Wadkin build standard.

 

[AlvyChippie]

Dear All,

Am I the only one looking for some quality small machines for working in a limited space. I want them to be well made, be under 15kgs so they can be lifted easily onto a worksurface when required, and have dust extraction that attaches to a vaccum cleaner such as Henry. They need to be able to handle most timber sizes that a hobbiest woodworker would use. The market seems to be totally lacking. This is what I'm specifically looking for;

1) A thicknesser that can cope with timber about 6-8" wide and up to about 3" thick (can't find anything between the proxxon DH40 (6kg) which looks brilliant but just too small (80mm x 40mm max) and all other thicknessers that weight about 30kgs and are too big and heavy.
2) A Jointer/Surface Planer about 6" wide (the Triton TSPL152 look promissing but could do without the handles and is still a bit heavy to be lifting frequently at 20kgs), doesn't look like a quality item either. Haven't seen much else.
3) A Table Saw with perhaps a 6" blade that would be capable of 50mm cuts (sort of like a circular saw but made into a table saw). My 18v circular saw has plenty of power and can cut deep enough but need the aligning fence and accuracy etc. of a table saw.
4) A very accurate Mitre Saw, again perhaps with a six inch 80 tooth blade, that can cut maybe 120mm widths and 50mm depths.

Perhaps they could be in the same range with the surface heights being the same, so outfeed surfaces could be easily made/purchased to cope with longer timber. They could all share the same footprint so that it would be easy to prepare a station or stand that could be used for all. They would be designed so that they can easily be clamped to a worksurface. They would have the quietest motors avaliable, share the same power leads and dust extraction ports so that they could be easily left in place. The thicknesser and Jointer/Planer could share the same type of blades, as could the Table Saw and the Mitre Saw, so keep a spare or a range of blades would be much more economical.

Am I out on a limb here, or are there loads of fairly serious hobiest woodworkers, with limited space and finances, who are not trying to build walnut tables to seat 12 people, but want to be able to process their timber and work to a high degree of accuracy.

Is it time to set up a new company?!

PS: I have seen plenty of planer thicknessers that sell for £200-300 and look nasty, are fidly to swap between functions, and are clearly not quality tools. Not interested in this market either.

Get Yourself Mafell MT55CC kit ;P

 

[Inspector]

"They would have the quietest motors avaliable"

Basically there are two kinds of motors. Induction that are quiet because they run at low speeds but they are heavy. Universal (carbon brushes) that are light weight but scream like a router or portable planer. You could go old school and put a motor outside powering a shaft that runs across the ceiling with a belt or two that you could put on any tool you want to use. Lighter weight machines because they don't have their own motor and the noise is outside. Or just use all hand tools for everything.

Can you setup your shop to use a small winch mounted on a ceiling track to lift heavier machines to your bench? Store them high or low as needed.

Pete

 

[Jameshow]

https://www.damatomacchine.com/en/combination-machines/

Any use?

 

[Sideways]

Table saw: find yourself a good used Kity 419.
For the sizes you are cutting, it's a good fit. Unlike all the clones that came after it, the Kity has cast aluminium table and this drops the weight quite a lot. Dust extraction is poor, but that's common for table saws. You won't want to pick this up, but it is easier to move around.

As for your quest for the other machines, I don't think the market is there. To have accurate /stiff machines at light weight you would need castings made of aluminium and machined to decent precision. You will end up with high costs, driving a high selling price for a niche machine that few people will buy. Lots of up front capital investment required for little or no guarantee of profit.

Oh, and we haven't even touched on motors. You'll be needing about 1.1 to 1.5kW for these. Unless you're happy to have a brush motor screaming at you, that traditionally means induction motors and those will eat up a big slice of your 15kg weight allowance.
So you'll have to to powerful brushless motors and electronic drives. Not yet a commodity solution so yet more cost.

 

[Sideways]

Get Yourself Mafell MT55CC kit ;P

Perhaps he could buy the Mafell Erika or the new Festool tablesaw in a box and write us a review ?

 

[HamsterJam]

I think the smaller Inca machines were there in terms of quality and were pretty accurate.
Although fairly compact they were substantially built so not necessarily lightweight.
Unfortunately they ceased manufacture years ago.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Proxxon seem to have identified a niche market for small high quality machines. Going up a size embraces a far larger potential market for advanced DIY and hobbyists.

In industrial markets reliability, precision and service life are more critical. Weight is less/non critical - some degree of over-engineering is to be expected. Machine breakdowns are not just an inconvenience, they cost real money.

Hobbyists make purchase decisions mostly on cost, reputation/review, and capacity. Many machines are used infrequently - once or twice a month rather than 5+ hours a day - it is a part time pursuit not a living.

There is nothing more frustrating than finding your required dimensions are 10mm greater than machine capacity. Unsurprisingly the tendency is for manufacturers to maximise the capacity of the machines they sell whilst still staying within the "just about portable" envelope.

 

[Joe1975]

Proxxon seem to have identified a niche market for small high quality machines. Going up a size embraces a far larger potential market for advanced DIY and hobbyists

Thank you all for your responses so far. There seems to be a large amount of scepticism about being able to produce such machines as I describe for a cost that would be reasonable, and whether there would be a large enough market for them anyway.

I agree with Terry (above) that Proxxon have identified a niche market for model workers etc and that going up a size (which can't be that difficult) would propably take some of the Proxxon customers and bring in a large number of Shed/single garage woodworkers in UK and europe.

I think that there are a number of 'would be' woodworkers who are excluded from the craft on grounds of available space, and to a lesser degree cost. Such a range of tools could kickstart a whole new market. By having some shared components and dust extraction etc, a large degree of brand loyalty/tie in could be established. Project books could be written for the less imaginative to get started. Woodworkers workshop sheds could be sold fully equiped. Just imagine how much money most people waste on tools before they arrive at a setup that works for them. Hobbie ready sheds (designed by woodworkers, for woodworkers) could cater for different requirements. I'm sure they would have a high resale value as well if people find its not for them.

I have a small shed and have as few tools as possible to do the projects I want to make. For me having a few quality tools makes working so much more pleasurable than having a workshop cluttered with bargain stuff that never gets used.




Thank you 'Sideways' for pointing out the FESTOOL CSC SYS 50. This is almost there. The right blade size. Festool are very top end, but I'm sure something could be manufactured for a fraction of the price that would still be decent quality. Doesn't need to be battery powered.

Also the bench planer from Rutlands looks promissing.

 

[ColinDeVelen]

Maybe I am missing something here, but couldn't you satisfy your requirements with a track saw and a router with some guide bushes, and a few decent fixtures? 50mm thick, and as wide as you like will be cut by a track saw. You can use the track saw for jointing edges. You can use the router with a sled to flatten a board, then flip it over and thickness it. Just sayin'.

 

[Sideways]

Go backwards and look at the Elu powertools of the 70's and 80's.
Long before Festool * they sold market leading gear with an extensive range of accessories.
The routers and circ saws would invert under a cast alloy table with cast alloy fence and tubular legs (Festool CMT CMS anyone ?)
There was a small 8 or 10" square benchtop router inversion stand for box making and short lengths of moulding.
The power planer which is a beast, with cast and machined alloy sole, had an accessory stand to turn it into a thicknesser for wood upto 3" wide. It would easily take a 3mm cut off softwood.
There were induction motor chop saws and the TGS flip over saw that I think DeWalt are still making 40 years on. The belt sander had a frame and I think an inversion stand too.

Festool pretty much fill this niche now and by looking at their engineering and their prices, you get a good idea of what this involves. The Festool CMS product family are all effectively subsidised by using their range of hand power tools which sell to a far larger market of tradesmen who buy them for site use, usually without the CMS. Tradesmen unlike hobbyists have an actual financial incentive to buy into the range because they get at least some payback from the portability / dust collection / systems connectivity / warranty despite the high prices.

*Edits after some pointers and corrections from @Doug B :

I had always wondered about the similar names but never researched the connection between Festool and Festo who are still well known for pneumatics and industrial automation. Founded in the 1920's and trading as Festo from 1933, the company was innovating with the orbital sander, tracksaw and rotex in the 60's and 70's when Elu were doing routers and their own sanders and circ saws etc.
Festo powertools were given a more distinct identity as "Festo Tooltechnic" in 1992 and rebranded as Festool in 2000.
https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/23877/FESTO is great !

Festool's CMS product range was withdrawn from the market around 2019 due to changes in EU regs, so you'll only find them secondhand now. Thanks Doug !

 

[Doug71]

I was going to suggest Festool is about as close as you get with their system approach, everything the same height, easily swapping extraction and power leads between tools, saws and router both running on the tracks etc.

I have a little old Rexon bench top planer and an unbranded old bench top thicknesser which I sometimes use on site. I chuck them in the van for certain jobs, once I get them and my Festool kit set up I can do pretty much anything on site that I can do in my workshop.

 

[Ollie78]

There used to be a thing called shopsmith which was basically a big lathe but it used the motor for all types of attachments.
Just done a quick google and they still make them.
https://shopsmith.com/

Felder do some combo machines which are not super big.

Trouble is with stuff like planers and thicknessers is weight is generally a desirable feature.

Ollie