Suggestions on approach for a mobile understairs cabinet

[zerozero]

Hi guys, I could use some advice and experience on my next project as I have been doing a lot of research and am going round in circles a bit.

So the challenge is for me to build an understairs cabinet that can be pulled out occasionally. It needs to pull out as there is additional storage to the side and also fusebox behind it which we will still need to get to.

Dimensions of the cabinet will be 680 deep x 695 wide by 825 tall. It will have 3 drawers (2 deep and 1 shallow) I plan to use kitchen drawer slides (Blum Blumotion Tipon) as these have touch to open and soft closing which is ideal for the limited headroom in front of the cupboard.

To be able to get the cabinet out, I had considered swivel wheels but these will use quite a bit of space and we really want to maximize the storage and losing 12% of the space to the wheels I wanted a different alternative, so I've found some Teflon low friction 50mm feet that should hopefully allow sliding.

I will build the floor up inside the understairs area (probably with MDF/Melamine) so it is level with the carpet that we will pull out onto. However there will probably be a slight catch point one direction or another, so I want to make sure that the cabinet will last with that dynamic force being applied.

I have considered Birch Ply and MDF/melamine and I'm concerned that MDF/Melamine will not cope with the dynamic load - cabinet being pulled and pushed around and Ply will warp or not be uniform thickness and cause the drawer runners to fail over time.

I also have the Kreg pocket hole jig that I was hoping to use wherever possible. If MDF I would glue as well as Pocket Hole.

That is the main challenge for now so any advice/experience would be greatly appreciated.

Tools may make a difference on suggestions
I have Mitre Saw, Circular Saw (with Rail), Jigsaw, Hand Drills, Sander
I don't have - Table Saw, Router, Pillar Drill (and no chance that Santa will fit these down the chimney!)

 

[lurker]

Welcome 00,

Have a look at posts from member called mailee he has build similar thing to what you plan if I have understood correctly.

 

[Adam9453]

Is the top angled to follow the incline of the stairs?
If you very infrequently need to pull it out then you could build it with a smooth bottom (no feet or wheels) and providing you round all the bottom edges then it should slide around happily on carpet or a piece of slippery thin mdf, hardboard or ply.
If you need to take it out more frequently it may make sense to make it in chunks so you can easily lift it out in two or three chunks. This also means it can be lifted out by someone frail or weak which could be important in an emergency to get to the fuse board.
If you pop a picture up of the space then I'll see what other ideas spring to mind.

 

[zerozero]

Thanks Adam, see attached for a picture. The stairs are a square U shape so the stairs start to the left of the picture, go across and then over the head of where the picture was taken.

It is just the bottom part that the sliding cabinet will go into. I will build a couple of custom drawers for the piece above the structural timber for the stairs and pack out so all the drawers are flush..

Usage would be pretty infrequent. Getting luggage out of the large space to the left of where the cabinet will goand flicking a trip switch if tripped or electrical work getting done.. once a month if that.

I like the sound of leaving the bottom smooth. Although how do I make mdf slippery?

The thing I'm worried about is with 40-80kg of weight (cabinet/drawers and contents) and people dragging it around by pushing/pulling the top - how do I make the structure itself stiff and strong enough to cope with that? I know kitchen cabinets are usually made from melamine (chipboard) but I don't think butt-jointed chip/mdf would cope with that kind of stress..

I guess Pocket Hole joined Birch Ply probably would cope with that.. but would it be straight enough?

Just not something I've ever done before so I really have no idea but I'd rather over-engineer now to be sure than have to rebuild in a couple of years!

 

[zerozero]

A couple of other pictures that may help

 

[gmgmgm]

I'd have thought wheels would be easiest.

You could even go with just 2 wheels, on the back of the unit, and feet/bottom on the ground at the front. You then need minimal volume for the wheels, and you can easily pull it out.

 

[Adam9453]

Your staircase is almost identical to the one in mine.
We put our washing machine under there (to the left) so we still have a similar useable cupboard area under there.
You don't need to make MDF slippy don't worry, its slippery enough to slide about on carpet etc quite happily.
You just need a decent round over on the edges or chamfer to avoid it catching or digging in.
You could fit a pair of wheels on the back but unless they're quite big wheels they'll get bogged down in the carpet easily, plus they leave tram lines.
In terms of making it strong enough, you'd be surprised how strong a decent glue and screwed joint is in MDF. The trick is to design the carcass purposefully in the beginning.
So you'll need a full width and depth base to start with as thats what it will be sliding about on,
Next design it so your verticals all sit on top of the base.
Make the top so it fits between the two vertical sides so it stops them being pulled in towards each other by the weight of whatever is on the shelves below them.
Then i'd put a rebate around the entire back and glue and screw on a nice solid back.
If you make it all out of 18mm MDF (including the back), put lots of glue on and use decent MDF screws (spax ones are awesome). You can do it all with minimal tools. The only part that requires a more advanced tool is putting a rebate around the back (it would need a router) but you don't have to rebate the back in, you could just cut it to size and glue&screw it onto the back.
The trick to avoid it getting wrecked is when you pull it out, be a bit gentle and don't try twisting it to death. Most things last forever if looked after and about 10 mins if not.
Give me a shout if anything above is unclear and i'll explain better

 

[Stanleymonkey]

Are you removing the timber at the top where the two small square openings are?

I understand the concerns about stress on the box/cabinet. I think 80kg to 90kg is quite a high estimate. That's the weight of a reasonably solid man (Around 14 stones) Unless you are storing reference books or cricks in there, I don't think you will get up to that sort of weight.

Also - If tripped switches will be the main reason - could you leave an opening in the back of the cabinet anyway. Would be a lot easier to move a couple of small boxes and reach in and flick the circuit breaker than drag the whole cabinet out. I guess the cabinet will have to be dragged clear before you can step behind it and get to the cupboard - why not just leave a cut out?

I think MDF and pocket hole screws and glue will be strong enough. I built a couple of MDF boxes using this method - they are pretty solid.

 

[zerozero]

Are you removing the timber at the top where the two small square openings are?

No, this is the structural part of the staircase, so am leaving that alone. Originally I thought I could put runners directly between these and fix them to the timbers, but they are not straight and also I need the fronts to be further forward so it all lines up at the front of where the door used to be (front of the door frame). Also the runners need a number of fixing points which would be more difficult to try to do.

So now I plan to sacrifice the 40mm or so and build two small but very deep cabinets to get everything square and bring the front out and fit the runners in there. I will probably also then put a façade cabinet front in line with the front of the cabinets to hide the bare timber and the actual drawer fronts will be similarly oversized to overlap the large timber frame. So when everything is in place it should look like one set of drawers where actually the top two are fixed and the bottom set are in the movable cabinet.

Also worth noting that I will treat the wood with fireproof paint/sealer (intumescent) as I have removed plasterboard to expose this timber so they are now more vulnerable than before.

I understand the concerns about stress on the box/cabinet. I think 80kg to 90kg is quite a high estimate. That's the weight of a reasonably solid man (Around 14 stones) Unless you are storing reference books or cricks in there, I don't think you will get up to that sort of weight.

True, but I see this as being part of the house and I'd rather overspec and have it survive longer. You never really know how kids/teenagers/wives/gfriends will treat these but I assume abusively

Also - If tripped switches will be the main reason - could you leave an opening in the back of the cabinet anyway. Would be a lot easier to move a couple of small boxes and reach in and flick the circuit breaker than drag the whole cabinet out. I guess the cabinet will have to be dragged clear before you can step behind it and get to the cupboard - why not just leave a cut out?

I plan to have drawers in the cupboard to make full use of the depth of the space (650mm or so) so a cut out wouldn't work as probably more effort to remove enough drawers to be able to get an arm in deep enough to flick the right switch.

I think MDF and pocket hole screws and glue will be strong enough. I built a couple of MDF boxes using this method - they are pretty solid.

Cool thanks for sharing your experience. Were your boxes being pulled/pushed around or were they fixed?

I guess I am leaning towards using Ply for the cabinet as I think it would probably be stronger and hold stronger joints but I worry that it will change shape over time. Is that true or, once joined up as a box will it remain pretty dimensionally stable?

 

[zerozero]

Your staircase is almost identical to the one in mine.
We put our washing machine under there (to the left) so we still have a similar useable cupboard area under there.

Blimey that would feel quite tight in ours. As the height is only 850 and with a tapered ceiling approaching the cupboard it is quite awkward to get in there. Especially for me being 6'4". This is why I want deep drawers to bring the contents out to the area with more headroom.

You don't need to make MDF slippy don't worry, its slippery enough to slide about on carpet etc quite happily.
You just need a decent round over on the edges or chamfer to avoid it catching or digging in.
You could fit a pair of wheels on the back but unless they're quite big wheels they'll get bogged down in the carpet easily, plus they leave tram lines.
In terms of making it strong enough, you'd be surprised how strong a decent glue and screwed joint is in MDF. The trick is to design the carcass purposefully in the beginning.
So you'll need a full width and depth base to start with as thats what it will be sliding about on,
Next design it so your verticals all sit on top of the base.
Make the top so it fits between the two vertical sides so it stops them being pulled in towards each other by the weight of whatever is on the shelves below them.
Then i'd put a rebate around the entire back and glue and screw on a nice solid back.
If you make it all out of 18mm MDF (including the back), put lots of glue on and use decent MDF screws (spax ones are awesome). You can do it all with minimal tools. The only part that requires a more advanced tool is putting a rebate around the back (it would need a router) but you don't have to rebate the back in, you could just cut it to size and glue&screw it onto the back.

Yep I see, so the joints aren't taking any of the normal strain.

If I didn't rebate the back I guess it would sit inside the sides similar to the top?

The trick to avoid it getting wrecked is when you pull it out, be a bit gentle and don't try twisting it to death. Most things last forever if looked after and about 10 mins if not.

Very little in my house is looked after which is why I am in the habit of over-engineering everything wherever I can.

out of interest why would you not use Ply for the cabinet? Do you think that it would move even when joined up as a box?

 

[zerozero]

I'd have thought wheels would be easiest.

You could even go with just 2 wheels, on the back of the unit, and feet/bottom on the ground at the front. You then need minimal volume for the wheels, and you can easily pull it out.

The only wheels I have found are fixed under the cabinet and 75mm ones need about 100mm height. So even with wheels only at the back I would still lose 100mm of height for storage?

Even with wheels at the back it would need someone to then lift the cupboard to move it which I think would be difficult if it was fully loaded (and probably wear the carpet out if it was dragged without being lifted)

Unless you mean somehow I could mount these wheels beside (rather than underneath) the cabinet somehow so I don't lose very much height? I haven't found any that will allow this. Although I do have some space at the lower back of the cabinet as I have to go a bit less deep due to the fusebox.
I guess I could add additional depth in the sides at the rear to allow mounting wheels 90mm higher than the actual base.. but I could only do this at the back. See attached for side on profile.

Something to perhaps prototype to see if it helps...

 

[plug]

How about larger wheels mounted in recesess in the sides?

 

[Adam9453]

I'd use mdf because it's adequate for the job, however ply will be stronger and should be just as stable.
The thing with sheet materials is to avoid the cheap warped stuff from the diy sheds. You will want to go to a decent trade sheet supplier and inspect the sheets before you buy.

 

[bussy]

Good morning 00
How about these, they're what i was thinking of using for the same sort of project, but haven't got round to it yet.

http://www.espares.co.uk/product/es486763

 

[dickm]

Good morning 00
How about these, they're what i was thinking of using for the same sort of project, but haven't got round to it yet.

http://www.espares.co.uk/product/es486763

Was going to suggest those (honest!). Have a couple of ancient ones under my toolchest which sits under lathe bench and moves something like 60kg in and out easily. Probably less than an inch deep. OK, they are on concrete, not carpet, but should work unless you have very thick high quality carpet