Startrite 301 upper guide advice

[LarryS.]

Hi all, had a 301 for a few months and only using it in anger today, ran like a dream until the blade gut caught in what looks like the rear guide.
Does anyone recognise this setup as it doesn’t look like the manual I have (or has it been modified) and know how to set it up ?
Thanks
Paul

 

[johnnyb]

the rear guide has been replaced. originally its a rod with a disc of carbide attached to it. same under the table. I can take pics tomorrow.

 

[Lons]

What Johnny said, the carbide tips have a habit of coming off and I modified mine by drilling and tapping the end and fitting removable carbide tips.

As an aside the guides are set too far forward/blade too far back, the teeth need to be in front and clear or it will wreck both guides and blade.

 

[LarryS.]

Thanks both photos would be appreciated, I can’t see how what’s on it at present ever guided the blade !

im thinking it may need replacing and have looked at this, has anyone used this upgrade ? Or know where to get replacement original parts from ?

Roller guides

 

[Cabinetman]

This is mine, as you can see the two side guides are just brushing up against the side of the blade but away from the teeth and the round pin at the back (mine has lost its carbon but works fine till I get one) is just sort of ready to be touched when you put pressure on the blade. Takes about two minutes to adjust all three. You really don’t need to spend £100. Ian

 

[EddyCurrent]

Picture attached. The rear guide is about 10mm diameter so I was thinking a 10mm solid carbide milling tool might work good as a replacement.

 

[Lons]

Mine is a 352 and a 10mm bar works just fine, I looked at solid carbide on ebay and it's a lot cheaper, and better than a proper replacement but you have to be careful about getting the right length of bar for the bottom guide, (I don't know how easy it is to cut carbide), what also works at least short term is a 10mm masonary drill bit shank end first, probably a std HSS drill bit would work as well. As I said I just drilled a 4mm hole in the end of the bar, tapped it and used a carbide insert with countersunk hole so the screw is below the surface of the carbide, works a treat but I already had the inserts etc.

 

[LarryS.]

thanks all and the photos really help, but what is holding the rear guide in place ? Mine has what looks like the handle of a socket wrench in there which is loose so serving no purpose (i'm wondering if a piece has come away so will go out the garage / workshop for a hunt in a bit)

Unfortunately i have no engineering facilities / capability so need a solution that works in that case

 

[EddyCurrent]

Paul,

You are missing that large washer under the rear guide.
As the nut under the assembly is tightened, that large washer clamps the rear guide.
The hole inside the washer has to fit over the vertical post otherwise it won't clamp the rear guide.

I have a washer of the correct size I can send you FOC if you private message me with your address. It's about 21mm ID and 38mm OD

 

[Cabinetman]

Well spotted Eddy, and nice gesture. Ian

 

[LarryS.]

Eddy, that is very well spotted, and what i've realised as a result is the previous owner must have lost the washer and the small metal bar you can see loose on the photo must have been used as the clamp (though that then skewed the guides - unless there was a partner piece i can't find).

And thanks so much for the offer of the washer that is indeed generous so i'll put a donation to the local RNLI in as a result, i'll DM you my address

Ian thanks to you too, really helpful and the quick responses from both of you were very much appreciated.

Can I check with everyone, the current bar i have in there is the wrong size so definitely needs replacing, what's my best long term solution (i'd rather fix it once and right if i can)?

thanks again, the forum to the rescue !


Paul

 

[JimmyStartrite]

301S UPPER ASSEMBLY - Machine Spares

All spares are available for that machine, I highly recommend NOT doing the usual tight wood worker routine of bodging the guides with 'the closest thing you can find on ebay' your fingers would prefer to stay attached to your hands

The retaining washer is not a standard form washer, if its not thick enough it wont clamp the assembly

SM827 is a roller guide, but still works with the carbide tipped rods

 

[Lons]

301S UPPER ASSEMBLY - Machine Spares

All spares are available for that machine, I highly recommend NOT doing the usual tight wood worker routine of bodging the guides with 'the closest thing you can find on ebay' your fingers would prefer to stay attached to your hands

The retaining washer is not a standard form washer, if its not thick enough it wont clamp the assembly

SM827 is a roller guide, but still works with the carbide tipped rods

I agree about the washer but disagree with your other comments.
Even if there was no rear thrust bar the blade can never be dangerous as long as the side guides are fitted correctly and you certainly wouldn't lose any fingers because of it, the worst that would happen is the back of the blade will cut a groove into the bracket angle holding the guides and eventually ruin it.

Also there is no need to bodge the guides in any way. The replacement spares as the original are not only expensive but have a design fault in that the carbide tips tend to fall off, ask any Startrite owner of a saw with those rods and you'll find a large percentage know that happens and just to reinforce my earlier point, when it does happen the saw still works perfectly well except that it cuts a groove into the end of the remaining bar which is mild steel.

A far better solution IMHO is to buy a length of cheaper but far superior carbide rod of the correct dia which will last the life of the saw.
My solution works almost a well using carbide tips but I have the facility to drill and tap the rod and already had the materials otherwise I would have bought solid carbide to fit.

Edit

I've dug out photos of mine which works perfectly and is safe, note the shorter bar is the lower guide. The first modification was using JB Weld to stick solid carbide inserts as I don't have the facility to braze them on and those lasted many months before one of them came off, no drama, didn't even know it was gone until I changed a blade so next was the thinner tct with a retaining screw, I did think of using JB Weld again as extra security but they've been on well over a year now, had heavy use and are as new unmarked. Round TCT would possibly have been better but I didn't have any at the time and see no reason to change now.

BTW for anyone interested Steve Maskery did a very good DIY conversion using bearings, just do a search on the forum.

 

[JimmyStartrite]

Sorry Lons, but I was a service engineer for Startrite for over 20 years, had a hand in developing a lot of the machinery, I also now work for whats left of Startrite manufacturing spares from the original drawings and tooling, I have swept a few body parts out of machinery belonging to people who either think they know better or are to tight to do things properly!


If the machine is set up properly and not pushed beyond its limits (its a tabletop saw aimed at cabinet makers) nothing should be an issue, and parts should be replaced within their natural life spans!

 

[EddyCurrent]

I highly recommend NOT doing the usual tight wood worker routine of bodging the guides with 'the closest thing you can find on ebay' your fingers would prefer to stay attached to your hands

Unless perhaps if the 'wood worker' has over 40 years of industrial engineering experience.

 

[Lons]

Sorry Lons, but I was a service engineer for Startrite for over 20 years, had a hand in developing a lot of the machinery, I also now work for whats left of Startrite manufacturing spares from the original drawings and tooling, I have swept a few body parts out of machinery belonging to people who either think they know better or are to tight to do things properly!


If the machine is set up properly and not pushed beyond its limits (its a tabletop saw aimed at cabinet makers) nothing should be an issue, and parts should be replaced within their natural life spans!

I hear what you're saying Jimmy especially your last sentence and for most items would agree that original parts should be used especially by a user who has neither the knowledge or equipment to modify and improve a machine but maybe you can explain why the instances of tips coming off the rods has never been properly addressed, I bought my 352 s/h but from a long term friend who had a cabinet making business, a one man band and I actually used to sell him blades we made up from Starrett coil. He set the saw up correctly but was regularly replacing rods and both tips were missing when I got the saw. Unless of course the brazing process these days is more effective.
We were selling Startrite bandsaws in the eighties when I was branch manager of a local company and it certainly wasn't an isolated case, there have also been comments on this forum about the issue so my opinion is not just something I read off the internet.
Why would a correctly sized solid carbide rod be less effective than the tipped one supplied by Startrite? IMHO it is a better option and definitely cheaper to boot than the £28 tipped version from Startrite ( or presumably you)? I would also repeat that I consider my own solution even though it was initially a temporary fix to be perfectly safe and effective. If you feel it isn't then please explain as I'm open to listening. I use carbide and HSS on my small engineering lathe so I know what is effective.

On reflection I shouldn't have suggested a masonary drill shank would work (though it will ) as the OP is inexperienced but I stand by my comment that it's safe even without a rod, just not desirable.

Don't get me wrong, I love the bandsaw which I've had for about 8 years but it certainly isn't complicated in fact it's the simplicity and reliability that makes a 30 or 40 year old machine still desirable and sought after and why so many of the machines we sold into the trade in the eighties are still in use.

A bandsaw is easier to set up that many other machines in common use and unless the guarding has been removed the vast majority of accidents as far as I'm aware are down to user error, carelessness and blunt blades, These machines just need common sense to operate, you're much less likely to lose a digit or anything else compared to something like a table saw.

 

[Lons]

This is a photo of my modified ( temporary ) upper thrust rod, it's unmarked after many months of fairly heavy use and the other pic of what happens to the original mild steel bar when it loses the carbide tip. It was like that when I got the saw which is why I did the mod.

I've also just checked the Startrite replacement cost which is £28 plus Vat and £10 delivery so more than £40. I can get 10 at 100 x 10mm solid bars from China for half that price or a couple in the UK for less than £20. There's being tight, maybe I am but I don't think this is one of those occasions.

The clamping washer btw is 3mm thick

BTW, before anyone points it out, the last photo in one of my other posts shouldn't be there as I thought I'd removed it, the side guides are upside down, one of those DOH moments when changing blades but I realised before I used it and uttered a few "oh deary me" words.

 

[JimmyStartrite]

Chinese monkey metal!
Real good quality carbide is extremely expensive, hence tipped rods!
hence tipped tooling becoming industry standard in engineering!

The parts are not expensive, they are relative to the cost of British engineering, they have VAT because they are industrial machines, if you're making bird tables in your garage buy a screwfix £99 special!

I have serviced thousands of 301, 351 & 352s and I only came across 1 with no tips, so either the machines are not being set up correctly, pushing the machines way beyond their capabilities, people are buying inferior 3rd party parts, or welding their own blades from coils badly, or bodging them with any old **** they can!

 

[beech1948]

Chinese monkey metal!
Real good quality carbide is extremely expensive, hence tipped rods!
hence tipped tooling becoming industry standard in engineering!

The parts are not expensive, they are relative to the cost of British engineering, they have VAT because they are industrial machines, if you're making bird tables in your garage buy a screwfix £99 special!

I have serviced thousands of 301, 351 & 352s and I only came across 1 with no tips, so either the machines are not being set up correctly, pushing the machines way beyond their capabilities, people are buying inferior 3rd party parts, or welding their own blades from coils badly, or bodging them with any old dung they can!

My 352 has a missing carbide tip on this rod. You may wish to deny it all you like but the quality and reliability of this part is just not there. Like Lons I will replace mine with a Carbide rod of the same diameter. My 352 is about 48 yrs old and has been well used but not pushed beyond its ability as I have an older Wadkin which does the larger stuff.

Your comment about rubbish Chinese carbide is also a generalisation which in the main is not true. There is some poor stuff around but my sources seem to be able to produce sound good quality carbide rods.

 

[Lons]

Sorry Jimmy I had tried to be polite but you might note there are 3 examples of tips coming off on this thread alone. You are suggesting that as experienced users of these machines we don't know what we're doing so I'll answer that by saying that as you're selling the rods, overpriced or not, you might well have a vested interest. I don't and seriously doubt any of the others have either. The fact they do come off strongly suggests they are not fit for purpose IMO but others who read this thread can make up their own minds.

As long as the rods are the correct size it doesn't matter what the material is as long as it's harder than the back of the spring steel of the blade, if you disagree with that then please explain your reasoning.
I can use that "Chinese rubbish" as cutters to machine steel on my little metal lathe, the tips I've used are from China as well and whilst I agree there is a lot of carp comes out of China not everything is so.

I accept your statement that you have only come across 1 machine with no tips, I sold through my branch quite a number of 352s and we carried stock of spare rods, whether believe it of not is up to you but I can assure you that I would not have allowed stockholding that wasn't being sold, like you we were in business to make money.

I need to make reference to your other comment regarding welding blades badly in case it was aimed at me. In our case we had a very expensive though old specialist machine and a long standing experienced operator to cut, shape and weld the blades from good quality Starrett coil, both were there for many years before I managed the company and yes we did experience weld breakages although few and far between so were certainly not "welding their own blades from coils badly". I can't of course certify that any of those breakages contributed to tip loss any more than anyone can suggest they did.