Starting a career in woodworking?

[BearTricks]

Hi,

I'm about to take redundancy from my job. I don't work in anything remotely related to woodworking, however I have lost interest in what I'm doing now, there isn't much future in it anyway, and I was wondering if a career change could be pulled off.

I'm in my mid-twenties and I don't have a ton of money, but I have enough savings that I could take a significant pay cut and go for an apprenticeship. I live in the South Lancs/North Greater Manchester area and I'd be looking for something within driving distance. Building furniture would be ideal, although I'd be happy with construction carpentry and joinery if I'd be working on more bespoke/fine woodworking rather than the veneered office furniture that a lot of apprenticeships seem to focus on. A fine woodworking apprenticeship would be ideal. The best one seems to be Robert Thompson in North Yorks, which is a bit far. I'm completely unfamiliar with how realistic my ambitions are.

I was wondering if any of the members on here have any leads or recommendations for where to get started. The area that I live in is a bit of a desert for things like this. There aren't many courses or craftsmen who seem to offer this kind of thing, and the most promising route seems to be Manchester University's furniture design masters programme but it's a lot of money and it isn't an on the job training programme so there's no guarantee of work. I've already been through university and I'm completely aware of how good universities can be at marketing substanceless degrees, and how easy it is to waste opportunities.

 

[custard]

Traditional apprenticeships are so rare they're almost invisible. If you can find one then good luck, but I wouldn't count on it.

More realistically you'd have to complete some training. And there are three main options.

University based. Unfortunately they generally seem to be abandoning practical work in favour of a design based approach. It's not just in the UK, I believe Malmsten and The College of the Redwoods are going the same way.

C&G. It's a bit odd but the full time C&G courses are generally just a couple of days per week, so you could combine this with some part time paid work to keep yourself afloat financially. From what I've seen C&G is on the retreat with a few colleges recently closing their furniture making courses. The good courses are still excellent, but there are some real shockers with demotivated staff, minuscule budgets, and couldn't care less students.

Paid for training. The reality is that bespoke furniture making is such a perilous and lowly paid undertaking (I'm talking with first hand knowledge here!) that many workshops are increasingly recruiting paying pupils to help cover the overheads. They vary from the truly excellent like Peter Sefton and Waters & Acland to the absolutely disgraceful. Seriously, you need to be careful if you decide to pay for long course training, there are some genuinely awful providers out there. You need to vet the syllabus and resources, and dig beneath the web site.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Almost anything else pays better than being a furniture designer and maker. My advice is to do almost anything else and keep woodwork as a hobby. I know almost all of the better designer makers in the North of England and they all struggle to some extent and many, as Custard comments, have to give lessons to make ends meet. It is perilous, indeed! I'm not sure how full Custard's order books are, but I think he'll agree, trying to find enough customers to keep you busy with the work you want to do at a price that makes it worthwhile doing, is a nightmare. I'm not trying to put you off, because many do it and some are successful, I just want to put some perspective on the matter. I started professionally in my mid twenties and stopped in mid forties, and seriously wish I never had. Effective marketing is almost impossible, as funds will never allow advertising in places where the well enough heeled to commission your stuff, actually look. Selling through galleries makes your already expensive products into heart attack inducing ticket prices. Most successful makers actually do not make, but employ staff, equip their shops with CNC and spend most of their time getting new work into their shops. Location as vital too. If you are not in the right area and cannot move to such, you'll not sell much at all. I spent most of my time making painted and built in furniture, to keep workshop open, in the vain hope I'd still be in the game when the work I wanted came along. It came along too seldom for me to continue and I actually build more fine furniture now as a hobby. One maker I shared a shop with for a little while (trained at Barnsley and David Savage) commented that there was little that could be made for under a grand, and I have to agree. Can you honestly think you could make and sell stuff with a starting price of this order? To illustrate, when considering workshop overheapds and all running costs of my business, I had to turn over £200 (my shop mate said about 250 on his calculations and this was a good few years ago now, too) per day for a modest salary, every working day for 48 weeks a year. Basically 1000 per week. What can you make in a week that someone will pay this for? Who are they and when you find them, let me know! Oh and the working week, 60 hours normal, 100 not uncommon when there are deadlines.

I wish you well, if you want to embark on furniture making as a career, but go into it well informed. Look at the NCFM (Northern Contemporary Furniture Makers) website and email a few makers for their opinions, and perhaps visit. Chris Tribe and Richard Jones are members and often post here. Incidentally, Chris Tribe holds courses and this has almost taken over his making completely. Richard Jones tutored furniture making and design at Leeds College, and the course has now ceased, which goes to show how thin these opportunities are becoming and their exponents valued in Britain these days.

Mike.

 

[custard]

Almost anything else pays better than being a furniture designer and maker.

I agree, if you've got what it takes to make a living as a self employed furniture maker then you'll always be able to earn more doing something else. Always. So it's a lifestyle choice rather than a rational, economic decision.

If you're based in a relatively affluent area it's not hard to make a gross profit of £20k a year (if you're based in a deprived area or out in the wilderness then you're stuck selling tat on Ebay). With a following wind you can realistically get up to £30k. But go much beyond that and you start to hit the ceiling of hours in the day.

And that's gross profit, so after deducting the cost of materials, but before deducting indirect or overhead costs such as workshop rent, machinery payments, or the cost of running a vehicle. For someone just starting out these indirect/overhead costs can easily top £10k, which means you might be taking home something like £10-15k. Ouch!

That's the reality as I've found it. And it's why a career as a self employed designer/maker is largely the preserve of those who can operate within that financial straightjacket. So someone with a partner who is willing and able to meet the household bills, someone who's personal circumstances means they have little or no overhead, someone with a police or military pension, someone with the mortgage paid off who is prepared to live modestly, someone born with a silver spoon in their mouth, someone who is burnt out in their late 30's or early 40's from a career in the City but has a packet in the bank, someone who makes furniture part time and has a (real!) job part time, someone who makes the occasional item of furniture as a spin-off from a kitchen fitting or joinery package business, someone who augments their income by offering training, someone who can monetise their furniture projects as user generated content on the internet, etc, etc.

It's a shame in that it's a financial reality that excludes a lot of talented people, but if you are able to massage a business plan into existence that even remotely makes sense, then it's an extremely satisfying and pleasurable occupation.

 

[jimmy rivers]

Found myself nodding along to quite a few of the comments above, some well written points (perhaps worthy of being a sticky post)

These points can be applied to the majority of the Arts (non proper jobs ) …Sculpture, Ceramics, Fine Art, Graphics, Dance, Music, etc. If you're wanting to make gorgeous bespoke pieces day-in-day-out, with healthy returns, it’s a little like asking to be a pop star, or a David Nash, or a Peter Saville, etc. ...Sure, why not aim for it, it is possible, but like all other artists you have to be realistic and either supplement your work or have a good support network (as clearly mentioned above).

I’ve happily made practical, utilitarian cabinetry alongside my furniture work, infact it is about 60-70% of my income. It’s rewarding (happy clients), creative, keeps me fit, on the tools, less stressed than a banker and the best part... I’m my own man. Sure, I don’t make a fortune and it can be testing but I don't struggle.. after a couple of years set up (circa 2002), plenty of networking, and a recession I’ve been in the Black for quite some time now. Without causing offence I do feel the projected earning figures above are a little on the low side - IMHO with time, it is possible to turnover £40-50k and net £30k.

You will need to be highly motivated but I suggest something along the lines of: network with practising makers, immerse yourself in reading and watching (YouTube). Study history, design, modern technologies (CNC). Learn auxiliary skills such as drawing, computer graphics, business skills, time management etc. For tool skills...find a (good/ seasoned) carpenter to help in conjunction with an NVQ course in Bench Shop Joinery / Machine Shop Skills, as opposed to getting into debt and forking out 15-20k on a snazzy furniture course in the wilderness. Start off with a skeleton, mid price set of tools and machinery in a garage and ... like the other artists...practice, practice, practice.

As custard says...if you are able to massage a business plan into existence ... then it's an extremely satisfying and pleasurable occupation.

As also mentioned, take a look at the NCFM website, there are a few Makers not too far from yourself and if you are over in Yorkshire (visiting the Mouseman) and fancy a chat drop me or some of the others in Yorkshire a line - we are all very approachable.

HTH

Good luck Jim

 

[Adam9453]

This is a really interesting topic as I've always aspired to become an independent furniture designer and maker.
I'm finally starting to realise my dream as I now have a workshop (albeit without mains power just yet as I've just finished building it) and I have a small array of tools and machines starting to come together.
I am embarking my dream on the basis that I will do furniture part time and have a full time main job to pay the bills until hopefully the furniture reaches a point where I can relatively safely make it into a full time business.
I think as most of you have said, its unlikely I will be able to make the 'dream' furniture all the time as there is unlikely to be sufficient volumes of commissions about to pay the bills but I think if you're willing to undertake general carpentry / handyman type work to supplement your income then it can be viable if not millionaire making.

Anyway I'm off to make a box and sell it for £100,000 so problem solved :lol:

 

[sitefive]

why not keep your main job, buy some tools and practice practice practice...start making some furniture and sell on ebay until you become decent at it... no need to pay anyone when there are tons of Youtube videos and guides for just about anything.

You must realize tho that you can't just make furniture, you must be able to do it all- marketing/selling as well if you don't want to work for someone else.

 

[Mar_mite]

I think the only way to have a good earner making furniture is to work in commission. People go to eBay for a cheap deal.
Aim to do built-in type work. Bookcases, wardrobes, alcove units and such. There is a strong market for this and the money can be good (if you get the pricing right). You could always keep an eye for a commission for furniture that way too.

 

[Beau]

Hello,

Almost anything else pays better than being a furniture designer and maker. My advice is to do almost else and keep woodwork as a hobby. I know almost all of the better designer makers in the North of England and they all struggle to some extent and many, as Custard comments, have to give lessons to make ends meet. It is perilous, indeed! I'm not sure how full Custard's order books are, but I think he'll agree, trying to find enough customers to keep you busy with the work you want to do at a price that makes it worthwhile doing, is a nightmare. I'm not trying to put you off, because many do it and some are successful, I just want to put some perspective on the matter. I started professionally in my mid twenties and stopped in mid forties, and seriously wish I never had. Effective marketing is almost impossible, as funds will never allow advertising in places where the well enough heeled to commission your stuff, actually look. Selling through galleries makes your already expensive products into heart attack inducing ticket prices. Most successful makers actually do not make, but employ staff, equip their shops with CNC and spend most of their time getting new work into their shops. Location as vital too. If you are not in the right area and cannot move to such, you'll not sell much at all. I spent most of my time making painted and built in furniture, to keep workshop open, in the vain hope I'd still be in the game when the work I wanted came along. It came along too seldom for me to continue and I actually build more fine furniture now as a hobby. One maker I shared a shop with for a little while (trained at Barnsley and David Savage) commented that there was little that could be made for under a grand, and I have to agree. Can you honestly think you could make and sell stuff with a starting price of this order? To illustrate, when considering workshop overheapds and all running costs of my business, I had to turn over £200 (my shop mate said about 250 on his calculations and this was a good few years ago now, too) per day for a modest salary, every working day for 48 weeks a year. Basically 1000 per week. What can you make in a week that someone will pay this for? Who are they and when you find them, let me know! Oh and the working week, 60 hours normal, 100 not uncommon when there are deadlines.

I wish you well, if you want to embark on furniture making as a career, but go into it well informed. Look at the NCFM (Northern Contemporary Furniture Makers) website and email a few makers for their opinions, and perhaps visit. Chris Tribe and Richard Jones are members and often post here. Incidentally, Chris Tribe holds courses and this has almost taken over his making completely. Richard Jones tutored furniture making and design at Leeds College, and the course has now ceased, which goes to show how thin these opportunities are becoming and their exponents valued in Britain these days.

Mike.

All so painfully true.

I have been a furniture make for over 20 years but all but given it up now. So hard to pay the bills unless you are keen on lots of site work or can crack into the "art" market. Now I do something else to pay the bills when I do take on a job I am brave enough to charge real money instead of pricing to keep the work flowing in.

Sorry for the negativity.

 

[PAC1]

From a training perspective, there is a growing demand for joiners so it may be that the CITB are encouraging firms to take on more apprentices. Register with bConstructive and see what is available. An apprenticeship as a bench joiner is going to give you some of the skills needed. The pay is crap and the working environment is usually not very good but in a few years you would have the skills to make things. You can then refine those skills to make fine furniture.
But the reality is a lot of people leave the industry as it does not pay very well. I did my apprenticeship and then moved on. I now make things as a hobby, I own far better machines and tools then the shop I trained in.
If I had my time again I would do exactly the same apprenticeship as I did.
Best wishes whatever choice you make.

 

[marcros]

Whilst not fine furniture, I think that there could be a good opportunity approaching regional builders to market fitted bedroom furniture against the likes of the national chains doing so. You would probably have to supply a show house at a discount and produce a glossy brochure, but the sales office would then do your selling, and you could receive a lot of work as a result. In Leeds, there are a lot of companies building small sites, a few houses on each and a few sites at a time who are loyal to their supply chain. Or at least they were a few years ago when I worked as a buyer.

 

[Trigs]

im not a furniture make so i couldn't comment on making a living from it but at aged 28 i decided to take my hobby as a guitarst and go back to college for 3 years to study and now make a living teaching and playing. you'd have to weigh up the costs of it all but lifes too short not to try something. During the early days i made ends meet by working part time at B&Q but I'm also lucky enough that my wives job pays fairly well as a school teacher.

Contact local firms, colleges and the CITB and the best of luck

 

[custard]

One of the most profoundly satisfying and pleasurable experiences in my life is to see a piece of furniture, especially one that I've designed, come together. I particularly enjoy the moment when it's "in the white", complete and sanded but before it's been finished. I'll often take a moment, while sharpening and clearing away tools, to steal a glance at the piece that I've just made.

There are smaller triumphs along the way. Inventing and building a little jig or fixture to help with a tricky constructional detail; discovering some beautiful boards in a timber yard, preparing tools and machinery so that its all operating to the best of its potential; completing the cutting list and seeing all the wood laid out in stick, dead square and true; or test fitting a joint and anticipating a virtually invisible glue line.

But seeing the finished piece is always a very special moment to be savoured.

I'm content to trade some income for that experience, in fact quite a lot of income, but I appreciate it's an equation which may not work for many.