Starter wiring

[Kidneycutter]

Hi
I acquired an old planer. The chap who wired the starter didn't secure the connections well and there were no glands into the box. Anyway I tried to start and nothing happened .took the cover off to find a few wires had come loose. I put some glands on and reworend but seem to have permanent live. Wondering if l and n need to be swapped over. Advice appreciated.

 

[Kidneycutter]

Bump

 

[Dominik Pierog]

Its a 3 phase or single phase motor?
THERMAL SWITCH connection is odd. Why its marked N and L.

 

[Kidneycutter]

It's a single phase motor. The N L was marked was marked by myself .there was an element of doubt but I thought the the two lives lined up accross the bloCk.

 

[Kidneycutter]

This is the source I'm thinking live and neutral are wrong way round? Also I'm not sure what the bridge is between a1 and l1 perhaps bridging the fuse?

Here is the motor end

And wiring to switch.

Anyway when I disconnected I may have mixed live and neutral ...why didn't I take a photo ..duh..
Still can't understand the blue bridge from a1 to l1.
It did work but now it it runs when I turn it on from the socket.
Again...help appreciated

 

[deema]

Who ever wired that up originally hadn’t a clue what they were doing. If you don’t understand electrics, which you don’t if you’re asking the question, get an electrician in to do it properly.

 

[Kidneycutter]

Probably good advice but not helpful advice. Maybe someone who knows more can shed light.

 

[MikeK]

If you didn't think deema's advice was helpful, you likely won't like mine either. Based on you questions and what you've described you've done so far, motor control wiring does not appear to be one of your core competencies. I recommend you seek help from a professional.

Based on the images you've posted, you have the following components in the box, and these will be helpful for the electrician who helps you:

ABB A9-30-10-80 non-reversing Series A contactor
ABB CB5-10 impulse contact block
ABB TA25DU11 overload relay

What you haven't shown is the motor data plate, the switch block used to control the machine, or any of the safety interlocks (if they exist). There is nothing magical about wiring up a motor starter, but it does require appropriate knowledge and experience.

Selecting a motor starter starts with the motor data plate. Based solely on what you have provided in this thread so far, I would not assume the contactor and overload relay are correct for the motor.

If the motor starts when you toggle the switch at the socket, then you have created a very dangerous condition for you and anyone else. I wish you the best in whichever direction you go, but please consider the well-meaning suggestions by others who have tried to help you.

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

It's a bit difficult to see from the photo, please get an electrician to come and have a look.

Basically you should have a Phase and Neutral going in the supply end and come out of the other to the motor. Its a three phase contactor so one set of connections is not used. The contactor needs to have live supply through the switch to operate. First glance seems like you're using two different sides of the contactor. Its a bit of a mess, what's going on with the CPC (earth)? Also are you using remote switch or the pushbutton, if the latter the contactor needs to sit correctly within the enclosure.

Please re-read my first sentence. (and if you must google Direct on line starters)

 

[Dominik Pierog]

ABB A9-30-10-80 non-reversing Series A contactor
ABB CB5-10 impulse contact block

Its looks that someone repurpose those whole block from 3 phase motor control unit.

Conections on ABB A9-30-10-80 no. 13 14 looks like for driving coil A1 + A2
ABB CB5-10 its a extra pair of connectors but in this case its little insane.

Because ABB A9-30-10-80 have 4 pairs of conectors (L1 L2 L3 and for driving coil) what 3 phase motor need. + ABB CB5-10 for control turning on next engine.
And in single phase engine you need only L1 for phase; L2 for N and L3 could be use for control coil.

ABB TA25DU11 can be tune from 7-11 A so its useless for engines below 7A (I checkt that it will be 3 phase 3,5-4kW engine)

 

[MikeK]

Its looks that someone repurpose those whole block from 3 phase motor control unit.

Conections on ABB A9-30-10-80 no. 13 14 looks like for driving coil A1 + A2
ABB CB5-10 its a extra pair of connectors but in this case its little insane.

Because ABB A9-30-10-80 have 4 pairs of conectors (L1 L2 L3 and for driving coil) what 3 phase motor need. + ABB CB5-10 for control turning on next engine.
And in single phase engine you need only L1 for phase; L2 for N and L3 could be use for control coil.

Yes, it looks like a repurposed 3-phase controller, but there is nothing wrong with that as long as the coil rating matches the control voltage and the overload rating matches the motor requirements. I've used 3-pole contactors to control single-phase equipment because that is what I had on hand. I used the spare contacts of the unused phase as the auxiliary latching switch since the contactor I used didn't have a separate auxiliary contact.

I suspect the CB5-10 was used as the momentary contact start switch, but I don't think it's possible to be certain in its current configuration, especially without the other components.

 

[Sideways]

It is very common to use a 3 phase starter for single phase motors - 3 phase are most common and cheapest.
BUT
YOU MUST KNOW HOW TO WIRE IT.
If you don't know how to wire a 3 phase starter properly for single phase duty, you can easily connect it such that the thermal overload won't trip when it should.
There are no "spare contacts" among the 3 main terminals (L1, L2, and L3) when correctly done and (apologies if I'm wrong) this makes me suspect that MikeK above could have wired his unit incorrectly.
It may work. It might not trip on overload and could allow your motor to overheat or burn out.

 

[MikeK]

I'm usually careful when I chose my wording and try not to mix terms like "contactor" and "overload controller", as these have different meanings in my experience. I used ABB 3-pole and 4-pole contactors, which are not motor starters and do not have overload protection, to control single-phase equipment because I had them in my spare parts bin.

In normal operation, the single-phase equipment connects directly to the wall-mounted outlet and is switched on at the device (we don't have switched outlets). The contactor I used is essentially a 3 Form A or 4 Form A relay that is available in an easy to use and configure package for incorporation into my wiring scheme.

If I was going to configure a single phase motor control circuit from scratch, I would buy the correct components and connect them accordingly. While it's certainly possible for such an item to exist, I have never seen a thermal overload protection device fail to activate when any of the legs overload. I have more experience with Square D, Allen-Bradley, and Cutler-Hammer controllers, but in each case any leg that activates trips the controller.

When certifying equipment during installation, each leg must be tested individually to ensure a single phase overloading will deactivate the contactor. When used in single- or double-pole applications, the unused legs of the thermal overload device are along for the ride and do not adversely affect the operation of the controller. It might be different in the 450+ page regulation covering UK installations; however, my shop wiring was inspected and passed with no issues, including my single-phase 3-pole contactors.

 

[Myfordman]

It is common practice to wire the live or the neutral though the spare path through the contactor and overload relay in the thinking that the protection better if all three heaters in the overload are used.
This is unnecessary as the switched in the overload relay operate as the logical "or" so any one thermal trip will operate the relay. There is nothing wrong with wiring all three way but it is uneccessary. Either way will pass inspection.

 

[Sideways]

Excellent, and thanks gents. I was taught a long time ago to loop L or N back around exactly as you describe but every day's a school day

 

[Kidneycutter]

Thanks for all the replies.
Just come back from the workshop and looked at the motor plate. It is rated at 230/50 10.5 a 1.5kw.
Is he dol starter suitable for this motor?
Here's a picture of the box.y

I've disconnected input/output - I'm sure this wiring pattern hasn't changed...is it correct?
Do I need to have the neutral on the switch side?
More than happy to admit that I'm not an electrician but I am capable of following a wiring diagram...a simplified one!
Thanks,

 

[deema]

You could wire that DOL up correctly, but it still won’t work. The casing and guts are not compatible. Someone’s changed them and bought the wrong stuff. There is no off button for the case stop to activate.
The mains input was wired in completely the wrong terminals. The on button isn’t wired up correctly. In fact, I can only see one, possibly two link wire that appear to be correct.
Just to emphasis, would you ask online how to plumb in your gas stove? If not, don’t do it for electrics. You can smell gas, you need a lot to escape to have an issue. You may be lucky, but electrics usually bite fatally.
Do you have the necessary kit to test the wiring properly? Do you know what tests you should do and what are the acceptable limits for each test? Do you know how to calculate the correct wire diameters to use? By the time you have what you need it would be cheaper to hire in a qualified sparky

 

[Dominik Pierog]

For alternative you could buy one of these

 

[Myfordman]

Use those if you don't want any overload protection on your motor!

 

[guineafowl21]

I can’t see where the stop button acts on that. Seems a bit of a b ugger’s muddle all round.

I would start again. Get a new DOL starter with overload in the range of 10.5A - it will come with wiring instructions that will help whoever wires it up.

Schneider is a good make - worth paying a bit extra for safety (for you and the motor) and quality of instructions.