Stable Door...

[Aligish]

Hello all,

Only joined recently.

I have a question...

I'm presently making a stable-style door for a friends porch. I'm copying - mostly - the style of the existing softwood doors that have warped as that's what he'd prefer. There is T and G let into rebates in the frames and I'm doing the same. My question is should I glue (epoxy) all the T&G in? There are fives bits of T&G and I was thinking of glueing the outer two and the centre one and nailing the two either side of the centre...

I originally planned to recess the T&G but was talked out of it...

I'm using Meranti that's been stored in my shed for a few years and is stable. Also, the porch itself is unheated so there won't be the usual high contrast between indoors and outdoors.

Apologies if this is a bit of an inane enquiry - I've never made doors before...

All the best.

 

[robgul]

I don't have an answer to your question - but have a comment on hanging the doors . . . from experience!

Having fitted a couple of stable doors the first was a nighmare to get the two parts to align etc by hanging the two bits separately - the second time, on a tip from the people that made the door, was to fix the two parts together with some battens, with a thin shim between the two parts, as if it was just one door - then hang the door as normal . . . obviously with 4 hinges - then remove the battens and the two parts should then fit and close as a good fit. It worked for me.

[Although I have to say I don't like stable-type doors - other than on stable sfor horses!]

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1 for hanging them as one.

 

[Cabinetman]

" The style of the existing softwood doors that have warped as that’s what he’d prefer. " thank you that gave me a good laugh.
I think you need to pin or glue the T and G boards but only in the centre of each board to allow for movement. Sorry I don’t know how much you know so don’t take this the wrong way, but you need to fasten the brace on the back of the door the right way round in relationship to the hinges, it’s surprising how often it’s done the wrong way. Ian

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Hello all,

Only joined recently.

I have a question...

I'm presently making a stable-style door for a friends porch. I'm copying - mostly - the style of the existing softwood doors that have warped as that's what he'd prefer. There is T and G let into rebates in the frames and I'm doing the same. My question is should I glue (epoxy) all the T&G in? There are fives bits of T&G and I was thinking of glueing the outer two and the centre one and nailing the two either side of the centre...

I originally planned to recess the T&G but was talked out of it...

I'm using Meranti that's been stored in my shed for a few years and is stable. Also, the porch itself is unheated so there won't be the usual high contrast between indoors and outdoors.

Apologies if this is a bit of an inane enquiry - I've never made doors before...

All the best.

The whole point of T&G is that there is an allowance for moisture-driven expansion and contraction across the width of each board (the groove profile 'hides' the variable gap that relieves any tension/compression across the width of each board). I would install each board with a small (1-2mm) gap between each one. I would only fix the end of each board in the centre of the width (if you nail twice near the sides, you'll encourage splitting - so nail once in the centre, or a tiny dab of PU glue, but that's harder to keep under control - squeezout would cause store up problems like nailing wrongly).

 

[TheTiddles]

As said, don’t inhibit the t&g from moving or it’ll split. Are you sure you want to copy a failed design?
Aidan

 

[Doug71]

I'm so glad stable doors seem to have gone out of fashion, nightmare to deal with.

When I was making/fitting a stable door I generally tried to get the customer to go for a new frame as well, if the frame isn't spot on you will never get the doors to fit properly. If they go for a new frame you can fit and hang the doors in the frame on your bench, much easier than messing about trying to fit them in an old frame.

Someone I know is building a shepherds hut and he wants me to make 2 stable doors as a pair (French door style stable doors), he want them in Oak and is going to leave it unfinished, I'm avoiding that one!

 

[smackie]

Minor tip. Tile spacers are really useful as easy guides for spacing looser T+G. The 1mm and 2mm ones are handy. Use them to space the boards whilst you’re pining (I usually clip a leg of the spacer so it sits neatly). They’re handy because you can space it all out evenly and check it all looks fine. As folks have said, a nail in the center will hold each one.

 

[pidgeonpost]

Someone I know is building a shepherds hut and he wants me to make 2 stable doors as a pair (French door style stable doors), he want them in Oak and is going to leave it unfinished, I'm avoiding that one!

That sounds like a double nightmare, especially if the Oak is going to be left unfinished. A friend once reluctantly accepted a commission from a wealthy customer to make a huge refectory-style table in Oak for her conservatory. He warned her that the timber would inevitably move in that environment. It did, of course, and she was not a happy bunny.
We inherited a stable door in our current house. It's well hung (as the saying goes) and swings nicely. The T&G is pinned twice at top and bottom, and there are indeed some small splits where the pins are counterpunched. I painted the door maybe 9 years ago, and it'll get repainted next week. It's inside a lean-to greenhouse so doesn't wet, but it sure as hell gets hot!

 

[ozzieguy65]

Hi Aligish and welcome. I will go back you your original question as in all groups the question was lost during the chatter.

Do not glue as that will give you pain.
To really understand and offer any answers good to know how thick the T&G boards are and how wide?
What coating are you planning to use?

Then I /we can help address your next questions as I do have concern of meranti and being outdoors in Scotland etc but start from the beginning is the right place to start.

 

[Aligish]

Hi Aligish and welcome. I will go back you your original question as in all groups the question was lost during the chatter.

Do not glue as that will give you pain.
To really understand and offer any answers good to know how thick the T&G boards are and how wide?
What coating are you planning to use?

Then I /we can help address your next questions as I do have concern of meranti and being outdoors in Scotland etc but start from the beginning is the right place to start.

Hi,

Thank you for your reply.

I'm machining the T&G down to 18mm and cutting the T&G. Haven't got the exact width worked out yet but it will be in the area of 135/140mm. The door will be primed and painted with oil-based exterior paint - not by me though.

I'd asked some chums about using Meranti for exterior doors before I bought it - the feedback was positive... I hope that's not misplaced...?

Thanks again.

 

[Cabinetman]

Can’t comment on the Merani, sorry. But I do think you’re going a little too wide for the T and G, The wider each plank is the more movement you’re going to get, and with them being painted each joint is going to crack the paint I would suggest no wider than 110-120 mm.
As these are in a rebate and not a groove, I would definitely not just pin them. But then again if I was making it they would definitely be in a groove. Ian
Edit, if not in a groove the rebate should be wide enough to have a 10 mil square strip all the way round to help keep the boards in place and cover any bad fits.

 

[Doug71]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and go against everything we are told about wood and movement

Some will say one nail in the centre so the boards can move, but if the boards cup the tongue and groove edges can lift away from the rebate.

Some will recommend one nail towards the groove edge of the board because this will also hold down the board next to it because of the tongue and groove effect.

In practice 2 nails are often used without problem, the board won't move that much and nails do bend a bit to allow for this.

You might see a crack in the timber above some nails and say it's because the board has dried out and couldn't move but if you put any nail 10mm in from the end of a board there is a good chance it will split.

The best way is to put a groove in the underside of the top rails and form a tongue on the end of the board to slide in, you can then put one nail in the middle if you want to keep them in place.

The bottom end is always a problem with boarded doors. If the top door is boarded you should bevel the rebate on the bottom rail and cut a bevel on the bottom of the boards to match. On the bottom door it's best to let the boards fly over the bottom rail so there is no trap for the water.

Just seen your boards are 140mm wide, obviously the narrower the better regarding movement problems. If you do put two nails in them keep the nails in from the edges a bit so more of the board is free and allow maybe 2mm between the boards.

Haven't used Meranti for years, it's not actually that durable.

 

[Cabinetman]

Now that was your definitive answer.

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi,

Thank you for your reply.

I'm machining the T&G down to 18mm and cutting the T&G. Haven't got the exact width worked out yet but it will be in the area of 135/140mm. The door will be primed and painted with oil-based exterior paint - not by me though.

I'd asked some chums about using Meranti for exterior doors before I bought it - the feedback was positive... I hope that's not misplaced...?

Thanks again.

Is the T&G fitted into a rebate then held in place with beading, or is the T&G flush and fits into grooves in the door stiles and rebates top and bottom.

Is this an external door?

If you need to avoid rain ingress on the door, then you need to be careful where the T&G meets the bottom rail....it's a leak point.

If the door is to be painted or varnished I recommend putting in a V joint at the door M&T shoulders on the external face....because the paint will only splitvthere anyway.
Also try and include a 2.5mm min radius on all external edges.

 

[RobinBHM]

On the bottom door it's best to let the boards fly over the bottom rail so there is no trap for the water

If you stop the boards at a rebate, the gaps can be siliconed, but long term it's a trap point.
if the door has a drip at the bottom, it's best to fit the drip, then stop the T&G to it.

 

[quintain]

+1 for hanging them as one.

+2 for hanging as one

 

[ozzieguy65]

Hi,

Thank you for your reply.

I'm machining the T&G down to 18mm and cutting the T&G. Haven't got the exact width worked out yet but it will be in the area of 135/140mm. The door will be primed and painted with oil-based exterior paint - not by me though.

I'd asked some chums about using Meranti for exterior doors before I bought it - the feedback was positive... I hope that's not misplaced...?

Thanks again.

Hi Aligish, the bad news, and I am sorry but meranti should not be used as it is a traditional internal timber and no real durability for external use. Sorry to say meranti is not able to be treated ( Wood Species Database: Meranti, dark red | TRADA ) using a product like Ensele Tanalised which is like the product used to treat pine. As per preparation fully cut ready to fit, undercoat and 1st coat paint then assemble with screws and once all done top coat. I agree with Cabniteman that the boards are too wide I would not use anything wider then 100mm and fixed with 2 stainless steel screws just of centre of thirds of the bard width which allows for full support of the board. Rebate up to you but better trench out so the board fits into the door frame and will make a stronger. Will it have any braces ? if so always make sure the brace comes from the hinge side upwards. You may need to have think if this project is to bigger step for you but if you go happy to help you to learn but more worried it is not for you but hope a good friend for you to learn. Happy for you to PM if you wish of on here if you need to know more.

 

[pidgeonpost]

With regard to nailing close to the end of a board and risking splitting it, a trick that has helped me on occasion is one I saw on one of Paul Sellers' videos. Cut the head off a nail of the size you intend to use, sharpen the facets of the tip to obtain a sharp point, and use it to pre-drill the board.

 

[Cabinetman]

With regard to nailing close to the end of a board and risking splitting it, a trick that has helped me on occasion is one I saw on one of Paul Sellers' videos. Cut the head off a nail of the size you intend to use, sharpen the facets of the tip to obtain a sharp point, and use it to pre-drill the board.

Yes it’s an old trick, but you don’t need to sharpen the facets it will work just as well without. Ian