Spindle moulder

[JFC]

As some of you may know i've been having a real task getting my very old spindle moulder to give me a good finish . So this morning i got everything out of its dusty box to see what parts and spares i had .

There seems to be a few spacers , a small mitre sled and a lead on pin .
The moulder seems to run my block ok but i think its going to struggle with the omas window profile block .
On the motor there is a plate that says 5/8 I H.P. continues rating and 1400 R.P.M . Is this where my problem is ? Is there enough power ? The moulder was made to use french cutters :twisted: so is it struggling with the modern blocks ?

 

[Anonymous]

Blimey, I thought a couple of my moulders were old. They look positively brand new compared to that one.

 

[JFC]

:lol: The foot pedal has been removed and it works on electric now :lol:

 

[Scrit]

On the motor there is a plate that says 5/8 I H.P. continuous rating and 1400 R.P.M . Is this where my problem is ? Is there enough power ? The moulder was made to use french cutters :twisted: so is it struggling with the modern blocks ?

If your spindle says 5/8 HP then that's around 480watts and probably 1HP (750watts) peak, so yes, your spindle is going to struggle making any really deep cuts. My SCM T130 spindle has approx. 7.5HP (5.5kW), even the Sedgwick SM3 I've just sold was 4kW (approx. 5HP), but I've previously only had stuff with 2HP and above motors (even my first combi machine in the late 1970s boasted 2HP) so I can see why it struggles making a deep cut. I'd hesitate to recommend upping the motor size without knowing what size the bearings are - if you put more power through bearings than they can take they'll just fail prematurely. BTW what diameter is the spindle, 3/4in, 1in or 1-1/4in? And what speed does it rotate at (probably 3000 to 4500rpm at the spindle - look for the diameter of the pulleys which look like around 2:1 ratio) Just thinking there might be a partial solution

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest it looks to small to cope with modern blocks, the RPM is low,as is the HP but I,m no expert.

 

[JFC]

The spindle is 1" im not sure what speed it runs at but ill have another look . If ive got to mess around with motors id rather change it for a newer one that can run the Omas blocks as they cost a few quid so id like to get the best out of them .

 

[Scrit]

The way to check the speed is how I was taught at college - measure the diameter/circumference of the motor pulley, do the same for the spindle pulley, then the spindle speed is:

motor rpm x motor pulley size / cutter pulley size = cutterblock revs

Scrit

 

[JFC]

motor pulley is 9" and spindle is 2 3/4 .
I think i better start looking at ebay :lol:

 

[RogerS]

Jason

As you can't use all those cutter blocks I'd be happy to take them off your hands and free up a bit of space in your worksshop

 

[Scrit]

motor pulley is 9" and spindle is 2 3/4 .

That gives you a spindle speed of 1425 x 9 / 2.75 = 4650rpm.

I'd say your spindle was designed for French cutters, as you surmised, because they needed a bit more speed than the 3,000 rpm that the big cutters used to run at. I'll keep my eyes peeled and if I see anything I PM you if you'd like

Scrit

 

[JFC]

Thanks Scrit .
Roger , your welcome to borrow any of the french cutters :lol:

 

[ProShop]

JFC,
Theres been some really good moulders on ebay recently 2hp & above, single phase. worth keeping an eye out, also have a look at Blundells, they have a couple of new ones in at the moment, not a bad price either.

Hope this helps.

 

[Scrit]

John

What's your experience of tenoning on the spindle? How much power do you reckon it takes? Also, what cutters do you use?

Scrit

 

[JFC]

These are the omas blocks im trying to use .
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20404&name=omas&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

 

[jasonB]

I recon they will wobbly about on your 1" spindle or are you hoping to get double use as a wobble saw at the same time :lol:

The omas ones are really only profile & scribe cutters so won't need a vast amount of power or if you are using it to cut the tennon then it will only be one side at a time.

JasonB

 

[JFC]

I recon they will wobbly about on your 1" spindle

Ive got a spacer so it can take a 30mm legal block :wink: See i do H&S now and again :twisted:

 

[ProShop]

John

What's your experience of tenoning on the spindle? How much power do you reckon it takes? Also, what cutters do you use?

Scrit

That's a very interesting question Scrit as I've been experimenting with this issue recently.

Tenoning on the spindle is imho working out OK, a little time consuming setting the machine up with the guarding etc is the only real drawback. But the results are very good.
On the power issue as you know it depending on the block size and speed setting. I remember the first time I loaded a steel 125 x 50 rebate block and was suprised at the starting torque needed to spin it up.

I borrowed a couple of 250mm steel tenoning discs and as I suspected it was a no go on a 4 hp machine, it struggled to spin up, even on the lowest speed setting stated on the block. I had to hold the start in longer than I would really wish to. It worked with one disc on the minimum & max speed settings. I then tried the alloy versions & they spun up easily. I couldn't tell the difference in the finished cut quality on the steel or alloy discs.

I have tried a 150 x 80 steel block and "oh my goodness" that takes some starting, I think this is 5+ hp territory :roll: .

I also tried a alloy 96mm * 55mm profile cutter block and stacked a spaced 125mm steel rebate block and that spun up easily at the max recommended rpm and a nice clean cut in one pass, no sign of taxing the motor.

I have a whitehill 125 x 55 combi block with sheer cut TC & spur, and also takes profile & scribe cutters, and this gives the best results imho. and my favoured tenoning method, you gave me the idea for this some time back (thank you ) As it has a countersunk bore to sink the locking cap just below the cutters, so you can make the timber fly over the top of the cutter block and make the tenons as long as you wish, the only limitation is the tenoning hood positioning adjustment. I'm using the Whitehill 55mm scribe cutters with this block. If you want to know which range fits the block let me know & I'll look them up for you.

My conclusions on the various blocks I tried is imho 4hp is the absolute minimum if your into steel small stacked blocks & you can get away with 2hp if using single blocks. I'm not entirely convinced on tenoning discs unless you only need smallish tenons, the steel ones are extremely heavy and need some real start up torque. If I were to use them I would certainly get the alloy ones.

Hope this helps.

 

[JFC]

Whats the down side to using alloy blocks ?

 

[ProShop]

Whats the down side to using alloy blocks ?

To be honest JFC I haven't found any. The general feeling was in the past with alloy being a softer metal, the constant changing of the cutters would cause some retightening issues over time, and the ability of the alloy to keep the set tension in everyday use. But with the modern style of cutter blocks locking the cutters in place via a wedge & pin system and the spinning forces creating even more and tool alloys being improved I can't see this being an issue. I have heard that steel machined blocks are more precise and give better results, but imho I can't tell the difference.

If I've used a block and left the cutters in it and taken it off the machine to use another block and then put it back in the machine again I always check the tightness again, so I don't see this as an issue really.

 

[Scrit]

John

Thanks for taking the time to add to the debate. I find your comments about steel vs. alloy tenoning discs particularly interesting, especially in light of having been on 3-phase myself for very many years now. It makes me think that to old saw about a 3-phase "horse" being bigger than a single-phase "horse" might have some truth to it - at least in terms of starting torque.

I borrowed a couple of 250mm steel tenoning discs and as I suspected it was a no go on a 4 hp machine, it struggled to spin up, even on the lowest speed setting stated on the block.

I found that interesting. My single end tenoner has a high torque 4HP scribing spindle which runs at 3,000 rpm. It will happily spin-up two 300mm tenoning discs (automatic Star-Delta). Points out some of the differences between single and 3-phase, again.

Whats the down side to using alloy blocks ?

As I might have said elsewhere alloy blocks came about as much from the need to be able to brake blocks safely on small single phase machines as anything else. Personally I don't feel that alloy blocks are capable of taking the same abuse as steel blocks in a production (manufacturing) setting and that there might be more wear problems over time (and I'm talking tens of years here), but other that that, and the fact that you do need to be a bit more careful how you clean them (i.e. no caustic soda or oven cleaner, thank you) I cannot see any other down sides. In fact they tend to be cheaper than steel blocks if anything. If the reduced weight means that you can run bigger blocks on smaller motors then that's even better.

Scrit