Spindle Moulder Tooling for Sash Windows

[oakfield]

I make quite a few replacement sashes for sash windows that are being renovated.
95% of them are an Ovolo moulding and I have a router cutter from Wealden Tools that is a pretty decent match for most of the windows i am replicating.
I do moulding, scribing and rebating on the router table at the moment and cut tenons with the bandsaw or table saw.
I am getting more requests for windows and would love to be able to speed up my process so I am thinking of upgrading to a spindle moulder.
It would be great to have the option to cut the glazing rebate at the same time as the profile, either with a single cutter, or ideally by stacking a rebate block with a spacer to create the flat section of the profile - i could then use this for 3/8th and 1/2" tenons.

It would also be great to be able to cut the scribe and tenon at the same time, again, maybe with a spacer to be able to adjust the tendon.

Does anyone have any advise, or know if the tooling i want exists or can be made?
Most of what i have seen available id aimed at new style windows with a moulding that doesn't suit old windows and a large glazing rebate for double glazing.

Thanks,
Mark.

 

[TRITON]

You can get the tooling but it isnt cheap.

 

[oakfield]

I don't mind investing a bit of money if it is going to do a good job and make things quicker.
Just struggling to find exactly what i need.

 

[stigg]

See Whitehill tooling. I have a three head tennoner but will admit to this being new to me. I have recently purchased ovolo cutters and scribes from them. They have a huge range.

 

[johnnyb]

it's normally a 96mm block for the mould and a 125mm rebate block for the rebate. then adjust to suit the mortice your using. three head could do tenon and scribe or a multico for the tenons then add the scribe on.

 

[Jacob]

I've done loads of sash windows with DIY made spindle cutters to match existing mouldings, in an old Whitehill block.
DIY givers perfect matches as you can offer them up and adjust accordingly.
It works out very cheap as you can get several profiles on one cutter and modify them as necessary. Cheaper than even than buying router cutters.
Rebates best with a modern rebate block as a separate op.
I didn't machine scribes or tenons - did them by hand or bandsaw.
Power feed essential - you can feed stuff though all day and every piece comes out perfect.

 

[oakfield]

it's normally a 96mm block for the mould and a 125mm rebate block for the rebate. then adjust to suit the mortice your using. three head could do tenon and scribe or a multico for the tenons then add the scribe on.

Thanks Johnny,
With those blocks, is it possible to get the mould and glazing rebate in the right position and cut them at the same time?
The cuttters I currently use create an 8.4mm mould, including quirk, and I cut the glazing rebate the same depth. (I hope that makes sense!)

I've done loads of sash windows with DIY made spindle cutters to match existing mouldings, in an old Whitehill block.
DIY givers perfect matches as you can offer them up and adjust accordingly.
It works out very cheap as you can get several profiles on one cutter and modify them as necessary. Cheaper than even than buying router cutters.
Rebates best with a modern rebate block as a separate op.
I didn't machine scribes or tenons - did them by hand or bandsaw.
Power feed essential - you can feed stuff though all day and every piece comes out perfect.

Thanks Jacob,
That’s some useful information.

I was hoping I would get a reply from both of you as I’ve read a lot of your posts over the years and have a lot of respect for your knowledge.

I was really hoping that getting a spindle moulder would be a big game changer and allow me to get sashes made faster, but I’m not sure it would make a big difference to my current setup of 3 router tables (mould, scribe and rebate), mortiser and tenon jig on the table saw.

 

[deema]

There are at least two approaches that will speed it up. The first is dedicated window tooling such as the Trend sets. They are very expensive, but sometimes come up secondhand for about 2K. It consists of a series of blocks and cutters that you set the spindle height once and then drop the blocks on for each operation. Everything from the scribed tenons to the moulding and rebates is included. there are different sets for storm proof etc, with many of the blocks common to all. It can also do doors, box sashes etc etc. For speed in a spindle it’s probably the best solution, and it means that you don’t need a tenoner (spindle needs a sliding carriage)

The next best is a set of Whitehill blocks that you can stack on the spindle (spacers are also used) and preferably a three headed tenoner such as the Sedgwick. The stacking blocks (rebate and moulding) allows you to make the styles and rails in one pass. A three headed tenoner cuts the tenon with the first two heads and then adds the scribe with the third. You can of course do it with a two headed tenoner, but you can’t adjust the placement of the scribe and it wears the scribe cutters faster.

Whitehill have all the standard cutters for the tenoner and matching moulding cutters. However, I now get mine custom made simply because it’s far far cheaper. For standard scribes I’d buy a set of custom carbide cutters and limiters (about £120) and for all other custom stuff I use HSS which is around £120 for both the moulding and scribing cutters complete with limiters. I don’t make any cutters, just price them in the job and get a set made……your fingers will love you for it.

You should get a spindle with a power feed, not only does it keep your appendages away from the sharp bits but it also gives a far better finish to the cut. A 3KW spindle will cut window rebates and mould at the same time in oak. However, if you have 3 phase get a bigger motor. More power is better as you can spin large steel rather than the lighter aluminium blocks which again improved finish.

I have not yet ever wished I had a tilting spindle, which adds cost and complexity to a machine, so personally I would get a large new or secondhand SCM machine with a slider and power feed which is a great machine for a single or two man shop. I like the Maggi power feeds, good robust heavy duty (I know Italian) power feed.

 

[rogxwhit]

My method for trad dhs (double hung sash) window components - as you said some 95% were a fairly standard ovolo - is after planing the stock, to run it through the spindle with a traditional (and very versatile) Whitehill block stacked over a rebate block. Other types of moulding block are of course available ... You just have to gauge the relative radii of the two blocks (cutting circles). Once you've perfected the setup, it's instantly repeatable, using a setting gauge for the moulding block.

For that standard ovolo pattern, I would tenon with a 2-head tenoner having a scribe cutter in one of the heads.

It's all about time, and time is money!

For other bespoke mouldings, lambstongue etc, which would be wanted occasionally but which might often be for listed buildings, I would grind a bespoke moulding cutter - either a pair, or for a short run (eg a single pair of sashes) just one cutter to be run with a balancer set back from the cut. That procedure was officially sanctioned by Whitehill. Also in that case I would tend to rebate separately, and mitre the joints rather than scribing them. All in all a slower process. but the job would be priced accordingly.

 

[oakfield]

There are at least two approaches that will speed it up. The first is dedicated window tooling such as the Trend sets. They are very expensive, but sometimes come up secondhand for about 2K. It consists of a series of blocks and cutters that you set the spindle height once and then drop the blocks on for each operation. Everything from the scribed tenons to the moulding and rebates is included. there are different sets for storm proof etc, with many of the blocks common to all. It can also do doors, box sashes etc etc. For speed in a spindle it’s probably the best solution, and it means that you don’t need a tenoner (spindle needs a sliding carriage)

The next best is a set of Whitehill blocks that you can stack on the spindle (spacers are also used) and preferably a three headed tenoner such as the Sedgwick. The stacking blocks (rebate and moulding) allows you to make the styles and rails in one pass. A three headed tenoner cuts the tenon with the first two heads and then adds the scribe with the third. You can of course do it with a two headed tenoner, but you can’t adjust the placement of the scribe and it wears the scribe cutters faster.

Whitehill have all the standard cutters for the tenoner and matching moulding cutters. However, I now get mine custom made simply because it’s far far cheaper. For standard scribes I’d buy a set of custom carbide cutters and limiters (about £120) and for all other custom stuff I use HSS which is around £120 for both the moulding and scribing cutters complete with limiters. I don’t make any cutters, just price them in the job and get a set made……your fingers will love you for it.

You should get a spindle with a power feed, not only does it keep your appendages away from the sharp bits but it also gives a far better finish to the cut. A 3KW spindle will cut window rebates and mould at the same time in oak. However, if you have 3 phase get a bigger motor. More power is better as you can spin large steel rather than the lighter aluminium blocks which again improved finish.

I have not yet ever wished I had a tilting spindle, which adds cost and complexity to a machine, so personally I would get a large new or secondhand SCM machine with a slider and power feed which is a great machine for a single or two man shop. I like the Maggi power feeds, good robust heavy duty (I know Italian) power feed.

Thank you for the very detailed reply.
I did look at the Trend system, but it looked to be more aimed at modern style windows and large glazing rebates for double glazing. - I also believe they have stopped making it now.
The stacked blocks sounds like a good solution for the mould and rebate in one.
I could then remove the rebate block to mould the meeting rail of the lower sash which doesn't need a glazing rebate and adjust the gap between the blocks for different size tenons.
I was definitely looking at power feed and sliding table. I have a couple of 3ph machines but run them from a phase convertor, so was looking for a single phase machine really.
It is a bit overwhelming looking at second hand machines as there are so many.
30mm spindle seems the modern standard - is 1 1\4 a big issue?

 

[deema]

The more commercial grade spindles usually have spindles that can be removed. This is to facilitate different lengths / top hat / different diameters to accommodate both 30 and 1 1/4”.

You can still buy 1 1/4” blocks, and they can be used with reducers for 30mm. Secondhand they are usually far cheaper than a 30mm block.

The other option to consider is using sleeves. This allows blocks to be mounted on a sleeve, and the whole sleeve is dropped on and removed from the spindle as a whole Package. The advantage is that you can preset blocks and just drop them on and off without adjusting the spindle height. It’s a way of creating the Trend system. Sleeves usually use say 40mm bore blocks.

 

[TRITON]

https://www.scosarg.com/tooling/cutter-heads/window-tooling-for-spindles

 

[rogxwhit]

A few more thoughts to add to the whirlpool. As an aside regarding router cutters I've never seen one with an ovolo shallow enough to suit a 16mm glazing bar, which is a norm for fine traditional domestic windows. The same might apply to spindle cutters - dunno - I always ground my own.

For stacked blocks on a spindle, it can be done with 2hp and up, and at that entry point a steel 125mm x 50mm rebate block will be fine in the cut, but an alu one will ease the starting load especially if you go with a 1-phase machine.

When it comes to tenoning, think how to prevent spelching. But it's easy enough to make a plain anti-spelch fence, tenon first, then apply rebate & mould after tenoning ...

 

[johnnyb]

I'm not sure your looking for production type tooling(trend and whitehill) or sleeved tooling as there is no way to run these on small spindles. 7.5hp normally and with sliding table as well. they are really good if you need say a full house of windows making in that style(it's the only way to be competitive really.) this tooling a big spindle and a four cutter are the staples of most smaller joinery production workshops.
anyway your making a few windows in a repro kind of way. these are best made traditionally. the biggest time saver in my workshop is organisation of cut lists so all components are worked on without to many cockups.
can't imagine making joinery without a spindle and feeder tbh. try it you'll be amazed.(don't need a giant spindle for traditional windows maybe 3kw(2.2kw even)

 

[Doug71]

Back in the day I used to make loads, the ovolo style were done like this, if it was a more intricate mould it would be a mitre instead of scribe.

Mould and rebate done on the spindle moulder as separate operations, tenons cut on the tenoner. I had a tenoner with just square blocks, it would drive me mad tenoning on the spindle as unlike @johnnyb I'm not organised enough so would end up wasting time swapping set ups between moulding and tenoning

 

[Spectric]

so I am thinking of upgrading to a spindle moulder

Not sure if I would call it an upgrade, I think the router has it's place but once you want a faster job then the spindle is the way to go. You only have to look at some of the videos where people are making frames and using heavier section material and the spindle is removing a lot of material over a lot more depth and making task the router can do much easier. I find the limations of the router can be overcome, ie using built up mouldings but with a hugh cutter head the spindle would do these as a single piece, my local woodmill has a huge spindle moulder that originates from the fifties and it just digest wood like we sharpen a pencil but it does look dangerous and like it would happily remove a limb if given the chance.

 

[RogerS]

And apologies if I'm telling my grandfathers' wife to vacuum up some ova but if you've never used a spindle moulder before, strongly advise going on a course.

If you do go down that route then I will be selling a lot of my cutters and blocks in the not too distant future.

 

[Ollie78]

Definitely get a spindle moulder if you want to make more than about 10 windows.
You do not need to get overly fancy with tooling like the Trend system or the other stuff like Omas etc these use big stacks and will need a really big motor.

Mostly I use the 30mm moulding cutters in a 30mm steel block in conjunction with a 125mm rebate block, this performs the moulding operation. If you use this method it is easy to adjust the flat between moulding and rebate to suit different glazing or stock thicknesses.
For tenoning I have a pair of tenon blocks so I order the scribe when I order the cutter for the 30mm then I have a matched set, you soon end up with a few options.
Whitehill used to do 2 sets of ovolo cutters that would do the rebate and mould in one cutter one half inch and one 9/16th flat ovolos these go straight in a 50mm block not sure they still do them, problem with them is no adjustment of the rebate depth is possible.

Get a power feed.

Ollie

 

[pgrbff]

My method for trad dhs (double hung sash) window components - as you said some 95% were a fairly standard ovolo - is after planing the stock, to run it through the spindle with a traditional (and very versatile) Whitehill block stacked over a rebate block. Other types of moulding block are of course available ... You just have to gauge the relative radii of the two blocks (cutting circles). Once you've perfected the setup, it's instantly repeatable, using a setting gauge for the moulding block.

For that standard ovolo pattern, I would tenon with a 2-head tenoner having a scribe cutter in one of the heads.

It's all about time, and time is money!

For other bespoke mouldings, lambstongue etc, which would be wanted occasionally but which might often be for listed buildings, I would grind a bespoke moulding cutter - either a pair, or for a short run (eg a single pair of sashes) just one cutter to be run with a balancer set back from the cut. That procedure was officially sanctioned by Whitehill. Also in that case I would tend to rebate separately, and mitre the joints rather than scribing them. All in all a slower process. but the job would be priced accordingly.

View attachment 157617

That is an astragal and hollow I think? I had them in my house in Ireland. Had Titman make me cutters.

 

[rogxwhit]

That is an astragal and hollow I think?

In the photo - yes. ;-)

Generally, I can't help thinking that life is more complicated these days with euro blocks and limiters. The trad Whitehill blocks were simpler & more versatile - and entirely safe with good practice. Of course you can do what you like in a one-person workshop, and I'm sure that they appear for sale ...