countrybumpkin
Established Member
Same as the new bloody pressure washer that you can change the pressure using an app, just a gimmick. Ridiculous. And EE’s new broadband connect 100 devices, when will this silliness end. Sorry rant over.
Spindle moulder or router table?
- Thread starter countrybumpkin
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It all started when Tv's got a remote, from then on a lot of people wanted to remain stationary whilst controling everything and it will not be long before we have fart sensors that automatically turn on the extractor!
Do you mean the cutter was spinning away from you? So for instance, if you are in front of the machine, feeding it in ( fence on the right ) was the cutter rotating towards you and into the fence, or cutter spinning backwards / away from the fence?
Devmeister
Established Member
For me the shaper is the queen of the shop. The jointer is about accuracy. It sets the tone for all other machines. The planer does well planing to thickness.
No other machine is as capable and versatile as a shaper with the possible exception of my Wadkin PK table saw.
My current shaper is a 1968 Oliver 287. The spindle does not tilt and I am using a home made fence from the previous owner. While it’s a nice fence made of wood I am slowly replacing it with a reproduction of an original fence. That will be a series on YouTube.
Shapers are great for joints but you don’t need a sliding table. You will need a shop made sled however that rides the fence. Doing a coping cut on the end of a rail is to risky without one! That applies to router tables as well.
Pattern shaping is shaping using a guide bearing. Often with a fence removed. It’s not only an art form but an advanced technique I don’t recommend to a new shaper user. Often you need to make pattern jigs with hold downs for this. This is when you see the true power of what a shaper can do. But take baby steps to get comfortable first.
A power feeder is nice. Set up correctly the feeder moves the work item thru the shaper but also forces it into the fence. It gets you a consistent finish but also aides in blocking the cutter from your fingers. I use an old festo feeder about a third of the time.
There are some operations where a router table excels. For example cutting blind dados. That is because you need an end mill style cutter like an up cut or down cut straight router bit. But a collet spindle on the shaper takes care of this so it’s a waste to have both a shaper and a router table.
Tiny pattern router bits are useful in doing small repetitive tasks. Again solved with the collet spindle.
while all machines are loud the router is the worst. While routers have their use I don’t like the extremely loud whining noise. Shapers are much quieter but still loud,
No other machine is as capable and versatile as a shaper with the possible exception of my Wadkin PK table saw.
My current shaper is a 1968 Oliver 287. The spindle does not tilt and I am using a home made fence from the previous owner. While it’s a nice fence made of wood I am slowly replacing it with a reproduction of an original fence. That will be a series on YouTube.
Shapers are great for joints but you don’t need a sliding table. You will need a shop made sled however that rides the fence. Doing a coping cut on the end of a rail is to risky without one! That applies to router tables as well.
Pattern shaping is shaping using a guide bearing. Often with a fence removed. It’s not only an art form but an advanced technique I don’t recommend to a new shaper user. Often you need to make pattern jigs with hold downs for this. This is when you see the true power of what a shaper can do. But take baby steps to get comfortable first.
A power feeder is nice. Set up correctly the feeder moves the work item thru the shaper but also forces it into the fence. It gets you a consistent finish but also aides in blocking the cutter from your fingers. I use an old festo feeder about a third of the time.
There are some operations where a router table excels. For example cutting blind dados. That is because you need an end mill style cutter like an up cut or down cut straight router bit. But a collet spindle on the shaper takes care of this so it’s a waste to have both a shaper and a router table.
Tiny pattern router bits are useful in doing small repetitive tasks. Again solved with the collet spindle.
while all machines are loud the router is the worst. While routers have their use I don’t like the extremely loud whining noise. Shapers are much quieter but still loud,
Devmeister
Established Member
Shapers often can run forwards or backwards. This is an advanced topic!
Conventional milling versus climb milling. If you have ever had a router run away from you then you know what climb milling is!
The problem is that climb milling often yields cleaner cuts. But you need to control the cut. In climb milling you often use cutters that spin the “wrong” direction with power feeders. Don’t try this without a power feeder. And for gods sake don’t run a cutter backwards! Climb milling is awsome but as I said it’s an advanced topic. Get comfortable with the shaper first using conventional milling.
Conventional milling versus climb milling. If you have ever had a router run away from you then you know what climb milling is!
The problem is that climb milling often yields cleaner cuts. But you need to control the cut. In climb milling you often use cutters that spin the “wrong” direction with power feeders. Don’t try this without a power feeder. And for gods sake don’t run a cutter backwards! Climb milling is awsome but as I said it’s an advanced topic. Get comfortable with the shaper first using conventional milling.
Im standing in front to the right hand side feeding in right to left. Moulder is spinning anti clockwise.
What happened is the left side of the fence wasn't tightened down on that side, so pivoted backwards exposing the entire cutter block.
Bit of a brown trouser moment I can tell you
Plus I was alone in the workshop at the time and there's no phone. Workshop is on an old farm(ex Chicken shed) So finding someone to get me to hospital could have been tricky.
But you learn the lessons the hard way and with luck don't lose fingers.
I approach every machine like its a bomb waiting to go off, check everything,stance,nothing to tangle the feet. infeed clearance, outfeed clearance as in will as the length goes through is it clear to pass right out. and I thought i had torqued the fence clamp enough, clearly though I hadn't.
The one that really scares the willies out of me is the ring fence. I've been about boats too long and to me its what a propeller would look like. I know everything is screwed down, and its a jig set up but the though of it not being there(like in a router table) scares me silly. So much so I try to design straight square furniture
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Devmeister
Established Member
Respect and Fear are two differing concepts. If your afraid to use the machine you have no dominance over the machine. Respect means you understand what it can do. I NEVER let anyone loose if I detect fear! I will not work for a boss who shortcuts common sense and has no respect for the machine.
Accidents don’t just happen. They are always preceded by a sequence of events leading up to them. If you find yourself taking short cuts to finish faster, it’s time to stop!
Accidents don’t just happen. They are always preceded by a sequence of events leading up to them. If you find yourself taking short cuts to finish faster, it’s time to stop!
Devmeister
Established Member
The one that got me lifting my eye brow was the over arm support.
In older shapers, you often had huge cutter blocks. Sometimes 12 in to 16 in. These needed an over arm support bearing from above.
Boxes with box joints would be done by stacking up 20 or more groovers with spacers. You load a side in the sled and run it thru.
it’s like facing a monster with lots of shiny teeth!
In older shapers, you often had huge cutter blocks. Sometimes 12 in to 16 in. These needed an over arm support bearing from above.
Boxes with box joints would be done by stacking up 20 or more groovers with spacers. You load a side in the sled and run it thru.
it’s like facing a monster with lots of shiny teeth!
Devmeister
Established Member
The industry caters to the newbies who are bright eyed and hungry to learn. They would go casters up with us old farts. What burns me is the suggestive need for an arms race in woodworking especially in the small shop space and hobby space.
For every modern development there are a few old school ways to do the same job. But they don’t tell us about them do they!
The strange thing about COVID is that it had forced many to slow down and think for themselves. Many have delved into vintage woodworking also called renascence woodworking.
The side effect here is that vintage tool makers like Lie Nielsen can’t keep their tools on the shelf! Everything is sold before each batch is finished. So I see this as a golden awakening.
I even have begun a new batch of molding planes as a result.
In the hobby space, you work on a single piece. Work at creating something while expanding your skills. For those of us who have worked in the commercial world, it’s totally different and often anything than enjoyable.
so while a LN plane is expensive, it is a quality tool that will outlast you! A digital router table will be junk in less than ten years. No software updates and computer chips that are not available.
When my 1968 planer needed bearings, I went to a bearing supplier who had them on the shelf cheap.
So I feel we all need to slow down and think about what we’re doing. The internet has brought tons of old school techniques out of hiding and many folks on forums are always willing to assist those who want to learn.
The Covid years will go down as the golden age of renaissance woodworking.
Calm yourself mate, im a trained and qualified professional furnituremaker. I know exactly what im doing.
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Devmeister
Established Member
in the first commercial shop I worked in, we had an SLR. Straight Line Rip saw. The owners son got hit my s kick back right in the golden marbles. Blood everywhere. From that day on we had to wear Kevlar aprons when using the SLR. Still don’t understand how that one happened
That is a good example. and clearly there he must have been standing in entirely the wrong place to feed a saw.
He should have been standing at the corner, loading in, not directly behind and in line with the blade.
Indeed, but you missed out the third and most important, and one to be very aware of and to treat like its a puckered up leper aiming for a big slobbery kiss.
OVERCONFIDENCE.
You can be overconfident in many things, driving is one of the biggest. We even have sayings related to this affliction - Biting off more than you can chew.
Overconfidence has been called the most "pervasive and potentially catastrophic" of all the cognitive biases to which human beings fall victim
What you need is to be aware of what you are doing. When you are scared of it, and i dont mean 'Fooked' if im going near that' type of scared you take note of what you have to do, where the dangers lie, how to avoid and that is an automatic way of thinking.
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Devmeister
Established Member
The problem with a single blade SLR is there lack of a fence. The blade is mounted from above with a tractor from below. You have a laser that aligns your cut line. So you wind up standing where you shouldn’t as you line up the laser. The tractor grabs the board and away you go. Sometimes you move the board to deal with defects also. But once the tractor had the board it won’t let go. Like I said I don’t understand how it happened.
The only cure for overconfidence is experience. I will not touch jobs today that I jumped on when O was 20!
The only cure for overconfidence is experience. I will not touch jobs today that I jumped on when O was 20!
Sure you're not thinking about something else. I've yet to see any saw without a fence, and in fact googling it brings up every straight line saw as having one.
Devmeister
Established Member
The older SLR saws had a stumpy little fence not very useful and often not used. It is assumed that the edge of a rough cut board would not have an accurate edge. So the tractor grabs the board and insures the cut is straight.
The stumpy fence will set the tone of the cut but if your standing ten feet behind a 4 inch fence, do you really think it’s going to be accurate?
SLRs are used to cut rough boards into billets for moulders.A moulder having 4 to 6 heads
The stumpy fence will set the tone of the cut but if your standing ten feet behind a 4 inch fence, do you really think it’s going to be accurate?
SLRs are used to cut rough boards into billets for moulders.A moulder having 4 to 6 heads
We call them planers.
Pretty much being replaced by this type of thing now
Very nice, but well outside my humble budget.
Starting price about $13,500(£10K)
They pretty much make spindle moulders 19th century antiques
Pretty much being replaced by this type of thing now
Very nice, but well outside my humble budget.
Starting price about $13,500(£10K)
They pretty much make spindle moulders 19th century antiques
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Devmeister
Established Member
This is a typical SLR with one blade
This is a typical moulder having 6 heads.
This is a shaper also called a spindle molder.
This is a jointer also called buzz planer.
And this is called a planer also known as a thickneser.
The logosol is unique in that it is a planer equipped with an edger saw having the ability to accept molding heads. Logosool builds machines used to saw boards from logs so edgers are important in that they cut the live edge of fresh lumber.
The problem is jointing. In a molder, your first head is the lower jointing head followed by your left and right side cutters followed by your upper planer head. The other heads are auxiliary profile heads.
The logosol has no jointing head from what I can see. Do your bed rollers are set for rough timber instead of accurate timber.
One of the coolest combo machines I have seen isn’t new. The Wadkin RM. it’s a jointer planer with the ability to accept molding heads. First built around the 1920s. I think some were made into the 70s but don’t quote me.
The spindle shaper still stands as one of the most versatile machines. Check out the options from Wadkin and Robinson!
This is a typical moulder having 6 heads.
This is a shaper also called a spindle molder.
This is a jointer also called buzz planer.
And this is called a planer also known as a thickneser.
The logosol is unique in that it is a planer equipped with an edger saw having the ability to accept molding heads. Logosool builds machines used to saw boards from logs so edgers are important in that they cut the live edge of fresh lumber.
The problem is jointing. In a molder, your first head is the lower jointing head followed by your left and right side cutters followed by your upper planer head. The other heads are auxiliary profile heads.
The logosol has no jointing head from what I can see. Do your bed rollers are set for rough timber instead of accurate timber.
One of the coolest combo machines I have seen isn’t new. The Wadkin RM. it’s a jointer planer with the ability to accept molding heads. First built around the 1920s. I think some were made into the 70s but don’t quote me.
The spindle shaper still stands as one of the most versatile machines. Check out the options from Wadkin and Robinson!
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An interesting topic and having looked at a lot of other info it still raises the question of if the shaper (spindle moulder) is such a good tool then why does anyone use a router table. Looking at the obvious differences then the router table is a lighter machine using smaller cutters and requiring multiple passes to make a profile wheras the shaper can often do it in one pass so the shaper must have a much more powerful motor than just the 2400 watts found on a router. Looking at the more entry level machines they do not have more powerful motors so is this advantage now lost? We know that router cutters are not cheap but tooling for the shaper appears to be of similar cost, but with replaceable cutters becomes more cost effective than the one piece router cutter. I can see the advantage of a large cutter head because with a greater mass it should produce cleaner cuts at lower speeds and offer more flexabilty providing the machine has the power so is it a case of a decent router table can meet the needs of most home woodworkers on a single phase supply because although the shaper may be a better option it is more expensive and may need the three phase supply.
Looking at Wealdons range of tooling it does seem a much cheaper option if you are a heavy user because a head for £80 and pairs of cutters range £13 to £26 which is cheaper than buying some router cutters once you have outlayed for the head and a much wider choice of profiles. So maybe a cheaper entry level shaper with less power may not have the advantage of single pass cuts but with such a choice of lower cost profiles whilst still retaining the ability to use existing router cutters it is a great option but still does not answer my initial question, if anything it could appear a lot of people could have made the wrong choice because of insufficient knowledge.
You can also fit a sanding drum, may not be a bobbin sander but could replace one to save space so yet another bonus.
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Sanding_Drum_659.html
Maybe not all is lost, Wealdons do a range of arbours and heads that imitate the shaper, still not as cheap though and I don't like the amount of cutter height above the table.
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/About_Mini_Mould.html
Looking at Wealdons range of tooling it does seem a much cheaper option if you are a heavy user because a head for £80 and pairs of cutters range £13 to £26 which is cheaper than buying some router cutters once you have outlayed for the head and a much wider choice of profiles. So maybe a cheaper entry level shaper with less power may not have the advantage of single pass cuts but with such a choice of lower cost profiles whilst still retaining the ability to use existing router cutters it is a great option but still does not answer my initial question, if anything it could appear a lot of people could have made the wrong choice because of insufficient knowledge.
You can also fit a sanding drum, may not be a bobbin sander but could replace one to save space so yet another bonus.
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Sanding_Drum_659.html
Maybe not all is lost, Wealdons do a range of arbours and heads that imitate the shaper, still not as cheap though and I don't like the amount of cutter height above the table.
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/About_Mini_Mould.html
Devmeister
Established Member
The shaper is an induction motor. The router is a universal motor.
peter-harrison
Established Member
Hi Roy, they don't usually take router cutters unless you have a special spindle to take them (usually only available for Felder etc)
It's all about scale really. You ca
We call them planers.
Pretty much being replaced by this type of thing now
Very nice, but well outside my humble budget.
Starting price about $13,500(£10K)
They pretty much make spindle moulders 19th century antiques
I have a Logosol spindle/shaper. I would like one of those four cutter things but no way would it replace the spindle. No ring fence, no sliding table, no tilt.. I could go on but you get the gist I hope.
