Ed451
Established Member
OK, Bugbear, you may have an arguement there, I'm too novice to know. It would be nice to see Tom Law belly-up-to-the-bar on this one.
Ed
Ed
Spehar toolworks, Adria, et al
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Philly
Established Member
Ed
Rob C's only problem is his undying love for LN!! He will dis any other make, regardless of how good..... :roll:
Cheers
NotasbiassedPhilly :lol:
Rob C's only problem is his undying love for LN!! He will dis any other make, regardless of how good..... :roll:
Cheers
NotasbiassedPhilly :lol:
Ed451
Established Member
Well, you can't blame him for believing in the products he sells. I left out a lot of our conversation, and I'm not adding it now to take up for Rob, but in honesty, Rob did not critique my saw until I told him how much I paid, which was close to the same price as a LN. Any way you look at it, the truth is the truth.
Now, when it comes to LV vs LN, Rob is a tool snob. I get a kick out of him.
If I'm wrong, I'm not afraid to admit my mistake, learn from it and move on.
Ed
Now, when it comes to LV vs LN, Rob is a tool snob. I get a kick out of him.
If I'm wrong, I'm not afraid to admit my mistake, learn from it and move on.
Ed
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Chris wrote:
I am curious to know how Rob's LNs may have been fettled.
Using a LN Independence saw is a learning experience. I am not sure if many, if any, find it easy to use first time up. I have been using mine for about 18 months now, and only now am starting to feel confident starting a cut (I guess I am a slow learner
). The teeth are set up more vertically (=aggressively) than my other rip dovetail saws, and they need to be startled with a more upward rake as a result. Other dovetail saws I have cut as straight as the LN, perhaps less slowly, but start more easily - which does make the process less stressful. These saws can be used on the horizontal. A look at their teeth reveals that they are raked more like a x-cut.
I can't believe that fettling the set (of a saw that is out of the LN factory) is going to make it start more easily. These saws are set up pretty well when they come out of the box. As I understand it, Rob (certainly in his videos) only stones the set to make it track better. On the other hand, if we were talking of a non-LN saw that had obviously too much set, and it cut a wide kerf, then I could understand that stoning the set would make for a more efficient cut. But the LN comes with "minimal" set already.
So the only alternative is that Rob must refile the teeth, per se. If he does this, then it is no longer a "LN", it is a "Rob Cosman".
As an aside, a few weeks ago I visited the Perth Woodworking Show, where I bought a circa 1950-60 10" Spear dovetail saw with a truly ugly handle. Essentially I was looking for a goodish blade with a brass back that I could use to make a dovetail saw (i.e build a nice handle, file and set the teeth). The teeth looked about 15 tpi and x-cut. Before I removed the terrible handle I decided to give it a go. Well blow me down - it cut beautifully: started easily, cut straight and smoothly, although the kerf was a little wider than that of the LN. Is there a moral to this story? I guess it is that there are a goodly number of terrific dovetail saws out there that are not badged "LN".
Anyway, I would like to hear about your views on Robs' fettling.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I am curious to know how Rob's LNs may have been fettled.
Using a LN Independence saw is a learning experience. I am not sure if many, if any, find it easy to use first time up. I have been using mine for about 18 months now, and only now am starting to feel confident starting a cut (I guess I am a slow learner
). The teeth are set up more vertically (=aggressively) than my other rip dovetail saws, and they need to be startled with a more upward rake as a result. Other dovetail saws I have cut as straight as the LN, perhaps less slowly, but start more easily - which does make the process less stressful. These saws can be used on the horizontal. A look at their teeth reveals that they are raked more like a x-cut. I can't believe that fettling the set (of a saw that is out of the LN factory) is going to make it start more easily. These saws are set up pretty well when they come out of the box. As I understand it, Rob (certainly in his videos) only stones the set to make it track better. On the other hand, if we were talking of a non-LN saw that had obviously too much set, and it cut a wide kerf, then I could understand that stoning the set would make for a more efficient cut. But the LN comes with "minimal" set already.
So the only alternative is that Rob must refile the teeth, per se. If he does this, then it is no longer a "LN", it is a "Rob Cosman".
As an aside, a few weeks ago I visited the Perth Woodworking Show, where I bought a circa 1950-60 10" Spear dovetail saw with a truly ugly handle. Essentially I was looking for a goodish blade with a brass back that I could use to make a dovetail saw (i.e build a nice handle, file and set the teeth). The teeth looked about 15 tpi and x-cut. Before I removed the terrible handle I decided to give it a go. Well blow me down - it cut beautifully: started easily, cut straight and smoothly, although the kerf was a little wider than that of the LN. Is there a moral to this story? I guess it is that there are a goodly number of terrific dovetail saws out there that are not badged "LN".
Anyway, I would like to hear about your views on Robs' fettling.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Chris Knight
Established Member
Derek,
I can't recall what Rob said in any detail but he certainly talked of stoning the saw. I don't know if he has done any more than this.
I can't recall what Rob said in any detail but he certainly talked of stoning the saw. I don't know if he has done any more than this.
bugbear
Established Member
Heh. Given the cost of your day with him, I'm sure Rob would answer this question if you emailed him.
I for one woujld like to know if the saw was a "LN" or a "Cosman".
BugBear (with several "BugBear" saws, in this new parlance)
A
Anonymous
Guest
bugbear":3esc99xw said:
Perhaps Ed was thinking of the LN tenon saws which are copies of the Disston #4.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I thought they bought Independence Saw from a fellow named Pete Taran. Just adding to the fun here...
D
D
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Hi Doug
Yes LN did do so, but Pete's design was based on a mid 1800's British saw.
It does get convoluted, doesn't it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Guys and Gals,
First time poster, long time listener
I have spent allot of time watching Rob at the local woodshow. Matter of fact, this year I think I will bring a chair.
Rob has pretty much perfected the dovetail joint and is a very well established Craftsman.
From what I can tell Rob likes to check the set of all dovetail saws he sells/ That doesn't mean LN makes an inferior saw with poor set but rather that Rob likes to make sure each and every client who purchases a saw gets a saw which works extremely well.
When a customer buys a saw. Rob will unpack it, and take a test cut, if the set can be improved he will stone the saw, if the saw is fine he will leave it alone.
Tis nice to buy a tool from someone who is well versed in dovetailing and have him comfirm your new tool performs to his expectations.
That is why on my Christmas list sits saws from LN which state "Have ROb check teh Set before he ships the saw!!!!"
Dan Clermont
First time poster, long time listener
I have spent allot of time watching Rob at the local woodshow. Matter of fact, this year I think I will bring a chair.
Rob has pretty much perfected the dovetail joint and is a very well established Craftsman.
From what I can tell Rob likes to check the set of all dovetail saws he sells/ That doesn't mean LN makes an inferior saw with poor set but rather that Rob likes to make sure each and every client who purchases a saw gets a saw which works extremely well.
When a customer buys a saw. Rob will unpack it, and take a test cut, if the set can be improved he will stone the saw, if the saw is fine he will leave it alone.
Tis nice to buy a tool from someone who is well versed in dovetailing and have him comfirm your new tool performs to his expectations.
That is why on my Christmas list sits saws from LN which state "Have ROb check teh Set before he ships the saw!!!!"
Dan Clermont
Alf
Established Member
Welcome to the forum, Dan. So on the BugBear Scale of Dovetail Saw Classification, you want a Cosman? Didn't realise he did that; I could have sworn I heard him extolling the virtues of the LN 'cos they'll work right out of the box.
Hey BB, dare you to take a BugBear to Axminster and ask Rob whether he'd stone it back or not. (Before you ask, no, I won't - I know my limitations! )
For your amusement, early talk of the IT saw on The Porch. Take the option to "up (browse index)" from there and as you wander through the archives you'll no doubt stumble upon further excitement. Unless you can make the search work better than I can, in which case you needn't take the scenic route.
Cheers, Alf
Didn't realise he did that; I could have sworn I heard him extolling the virtues of the LN 'cos they'll work right out of the box. Hey BB, dare you to take a BugBear to Axminster and ask Rob whether he'd stone it back or not. (Before you ask, no, I won't - I know my limitations!
)For your amusement, early talk of the IT saw on The Porch. Take the option to "up (browse index)" from there and as you wander through the archives you'll no doubt stumble upon further excitement. Unless you can make the search work better than I can, in which case you needn't take the scenic route.
Cheers, Alf
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi ALf,
We are talking veryminor tweaks like maybe one or two swipes with a stone followed by a test cut.
I own a Tom Law sharpened Sorby Brass Backed saw filed 15TPI Rip for dovetailing as well.
The Tom Law cuts faster then the LN but the set is wider and the saw does not track as well. The LN cuts with more precision and less dovetail sidewall damage.
Both saws make nice dovetails although I tend not to try to split the line with the SOrby and end up paring. The important thing is to buy a saw and learn how to use that saw.
Dan Clermont
We are talking veryminor tweaks like maybe one or two swipes with a stone followed by a test cut.
I own a Tom Law sharpened Sorby Brass Backed saw filed 15TPI Rip for dovetailing as well.
The Tom Law cuts faster then the LN but the set is wider and the saw does not track as well. The LN cuts with more precision and less dovetail sidewall damage.
Both saws make nice dovetails although I tend not to try to split the line with the SOrby and end up paring. The important thing is to buy a saw and learn how to use that saw.
Dan Clermont
bugbear
Established Member
Yeah - the Kirby book recommends before cutting practice dovetails, just marking a load of parallel sloping cuts on a piece of wood and cutting them.
He's talking BULK practise here, like golfers or tennis players. 20 cuts on the end of the piece, cross cut them off, mark again, do it again.
When you can make decent saw cuts, he suggests moving on to joints.
But not before.
BugBear
Ed451
Established Member
When Rob was teaching me, he had me draw a series of vertical lines on the end and over the top edge of a board (held vertically in a vise). I then started at the left side of the board and sawed on the left side of the lines until I got to the middle. I was then to start at the right side of the board and saw on the right side of the lines, until I got back to the middle again. If 95+ % of the saw cuts were not parallel with the lines, I had to repeat the exercise until I got it right.
To practice starting the saw, I sawed while moving the saw to one side or the other, thus plowing a trough in the end of the board. When Rob said "now", I cut into the board at that location.
To someone who has never seen sawing exercises before, this is neat.
Ed
To practice starting the saw, I sawed while moving the saw to one side or the other, thus plowing a trough in the end of the board. When Rob said "now", I cut into the board at that location.
To someone who has never seen sawing exercises before, this is neat.
Ed
A
Anonymous
Guest
] things like stoning the saw) to the point where they perform a lot better than the LN saw straight form the factory.[/quote said:
I am really surprised by this Derek.
I have not touched my LN Independance saw with a stone since it arrived from the factory and have found it amazingly easy to use from the box. I guess it might be down to experience with other saws or style or something - or the hours I spent watching RC cut DTs with one first
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Hi Tony
I am not the only one with this experience, and it is not about the set of the teeth. My LN Independence cuts very straight (are there really degrees of straight? :-k ). So it is still in original condition. It starts better now than 18 months ago but only because I have learned how to use it. I do have to point it differently than I do other dovetail saws. Tony, Have you used many other rip-filed dovetail saws, and what were they like?
It would be interesting to hear the experiences of others here who have used this saw.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Philly
Established Member
Derek
There is a learning curve with the LN saw-starting the cut is the hardest part. Once started the saw is a dream!
I find that taking most of the weight of the saw when starting the cut is best, as well as saw upwards at a fair old angle (say 45 degrees).
Hope this helps
Philly
There is a learning curve with the LN saw-starting the cut is the hardest part. Once started the saw is a dream!
I find that taking most of the weight of the saw when starting the cut is best, as well as saw upwards at a fair old angle (say 45 degrees).
Hope this helps
Philly
Your right the LN DT saw does taske some getting used to, I masde som little giudes of the required DT angle that are rebated and fit over the wood, by holding the blade against this jig I can get a good start no problem and once its started it holds is line. Something very simple but it works for me.
bugbear
Established Member
Hmm. Jeff Gorman points out that a slightly blunted saw is easier to start.
Could the new ease perhaps be the result of a combination of this effect and your experience?
The LN is not (thank $DEITY) a hard point saw, so some blunting is to be expected.
BugBear
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Hi BB
No, the ease of starting the LN comes from (1) cutting at a higher angle - pointing the saw upwards (as Philly wrote, at about 45 degrees), and (2) letting the weight of the saw do the work, that is, don't force it.
It takes a conscious effort, more so than my other saws.
Have you watched Rob Cosman's dovetail videos? Even his starting is a scratchy motion until the teeth get started in the kerf.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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