Something new

[Bingy man]

Insurance isn't expensive, my years policy costs me less than £40 and that gives me £5m public liability and £10m personal indemnity cover, a friend of mine is also a turner and woodworker, he does a lot of stalls and has said that occasionally he loses money on the day, it's just the way it goes but it's not often enough to put him off doing it. I'm not sure what my share of the costs are yet for the 2 events I'm going to but I'm going to use them as a guide to if the effort is worth it for myself, I've got a few nice bowls made, needs to make a couple more big ones and maybe some smaller ones then I want to start on small stuff like bud vases that will hopefully do well, I have less than 4 weeks to go so may end up having to take stuff from the shop for the 2 days, also need to get a card reader, I've lost out on sales before due to not having one.
Etsy is a possibility but I begrudge giving them their cut and their t&c seem to be making it harder and harder on the sellers, not to mention the fact it was set up for creative to sell their craft and now it seems to be mostly mass produced tat.
Need to look into the costs etc around having my own website, I know someone that can set it up for me so just need to sit with them and go through everything.

The thing about a website is it should earn you money rather than cost you . Saying that I don’t know much about setting one up but I think of them as a bit like you sitting at an Event for 10 or 12 hours a day but unless your there you won’t sell anything. A website is pretty much un-manned and operates 24/7 . As long as your products are selling this ( imo) will hopefully off set any set up and running costs . People are always looking for one offs that their friends will admire but can never have . Set pieces are a good puller because if a customer loves the 1st piece then then they may well want the set so they compliment each other. So good luck and go for it ..

 

[akirk]

Some random thoughts:

• handmade crafts struggle to sell for a price appropriate to the time taken - this is partly because people compare the cost against products made abroad where the hourly rate is so much lower.
• the consumer finds it difficult to understand value / quality / etc. in a product, for example we have a rose arch in the garden, B&Q will sell a cheaply made one for £18 - we had ours made by a Somerset based blacksmith and it cost considerably more - but the difference is vast, it is rock solid, likely to last 5-10x as long, was made bespoke to the space, the metal fence alongside and by the rose garden was made to match with the same design and to fit exactly. If though the consumer doesn't see those differences, then they can't see why you would pay 10x the price for what appears to be the same item.
• giving a visual explanation of value increases selling prices - you see this in our world most obviously in pen makers who make pens from blanks with a historical interest (spitfire blade / SS Great Britain / clock-tower beams from Big Ben / etc.) - a certificate of authenticity adds ££ to the perceived value.
• what drives perception of value in the marketplace - looking at standard retail, what drives higher prices?
  • Brand - slap a Gucci label on something and even though costing the same to make it will sell at xx the price - how does the craft world copy that?
  • Presentation - from cereal sold in bigger boxes (half empty) to give the perception of greater value, to at its most extreme perhaps whisky sold in commemorative bottles for thousands more than the whisky is worth - look at any local shop and you will find easter eggs in fancy cardboard boxes / razors being sold in fancy packaging / etc. The essentials tend to be more basically packaged (ream of paper for example?!) but anything where a large part of the cost is in perceived value v. actual value - it will be driven by the packaging...
  • Exclusivity - make it hard to buy and people will pay more - sounds contradictory, but it works - If you are selling something as a limited edition / special edition / etc. then you can sell for more.
  • So - if you sell pens and have racks of beautiful oak pens on your market stall, place three (different colours) each in a box / brand them as your premium line / sell them as limited editions - and for almost no more cost you can double or treble the selling price.
• Presentation is more than just the item - from the items to the stall to the seller - everything influences how price is perceived.
  • Items - as above, present them better to sell for more
  • The stall - is it simply a table / table with a cloth, or is there more to it - what is the perception of a visitor, do you look amateur or professional?
  • The seller - whether dressing in 'work clothes' (e.g. in a turning smock / apron) or in casual clothes - how do you continue the brand. A seller wearing a smart polo shirt branded with the same logo as their stall says that they are a professional - it gives a reason to charge more - someone who looks as though they have just pulled themselves out of their workshop to turn up gives a more negative impression...

So, prices are not as simple as what does the market bear - as the maker / seller, you get to influence that price in many ways. The average consumer likes to be sold to - getting something which shouts high-end / exclusive validates their feelings about themselves and they are more likely to spend more money... If selling a bowl - is it just a bowl wrapped in bubble wrap or tissue paper - or is it a bowl in a branded cardboard box with certificate of authenticity and a simple leaflet or postcard talking about the maker - does the maker see each sale as just a one-off or look to sell again to someone who has already proven that they will pay the money and like the product - so gathering data for mailing lists / offering a Christmas present service / saying that you have an exclusive and limited range coming out in the Autumn - would they be interested in being the first to hear about it - all ways of doing that...


Websites:
Websites are an interesting concept for the average maker - realistically, will people buy from it or not - in most cases they won't - if you sell something repeatable and consistent like scented candles then it is quite easy to sell online - the punter knows and understands the brand and product, and as long as they feel that the scent will suit, they will buy. Selling wooden bowls / pens / other wooden objects is more challenging as generally people prefer to hold them / feel a sense of understanding of the object before buying. The exceptions tend to be people who have large followings on social media where their followers already feel from that engagement that they belong and have a sense of relationship with the maker - so will buy from them. An e-commerce website is easy to set up and run (Shopify is the best current option), but there is still a cost and unless you are prepared to put a lot of effort into marketing it then it is no different to building a shop in a remote woodland and building no roads to get there. You have to think about how you will get people onto the site / what will make them want to buy / what incentives might you need to give to encourage purchases / etc. Having a simple portfolio or gallery can be helpful (and is comparably cheaper to set up / run) but selling online is a whole new game for most makers...

 

[Stigmorgan]

Back to the original subject
Yesterday I trimmed the ply block to size and removed the back panel then started cutting the top draw, seems the top radius was too tight for my blade so had to redesign for a single drawer, cut finish isn't great but I think I can work with it, pulled the drawer blank out and discovered the glue had not cured on the middle so have had to re-clamp it, gonna need to do a lot of clean up on the back too before I can glue the rear panel back on, I'm not really enjoying the process of this make so doubt it will become a regular thing.
Here's how I left it yesterday

 

[Cabinetman]

That’s quite an achievement cutting that on a bandsaw ( not that there’s any other way!)
Ian
Ps brilliant comment from @akirk about a website being like building a shop in a Forrest with no roads to it unless you have more advertising.

 

[Dovetail]

@Stigmorgan that is looking amazing. Especially all the curves.

 

[Stigmorgan]

@Stigmorgan that is looking amazing. Especially all the curves.

Hopefully it will be a success but I'm not sure at the minute

 

[Stigmorgan]

I hate it.

I forgot to allow for the kerf so now the drawer is too small for the calculator by 2mm, in my haste I forgot to sand the inside of the drawer before gluing it back together, the back panel of the drawer didn't glue on very well because the layer of ply didn't like being cut and tore up a lot, same issue with the back of the box, the finish from the saw blade is absolute dog cowpat, I've got more sanding to do than I've done in woodturning over the last year, I'm really considering throwing this out and doing something else, there's no way I can justify charging enough for this to cover my time let alone materials.
Lessons learnt
- ply is not a good material for a bandsaw box
- my current blade is not suitable in any way shape or form for curved cuts
- my blade/table are way off being square
- new sharp saw blade is vital
- I don't have the patience for all this glue up nonsense

 

[MF1000]

Any experience is good imho …..never say never etc - it’s sparked a few ideas in my head with some of the stock of wood I’ve got etc. I’m thinking of this approach using something other than ply to make a storage drawer for expensive kitchen knives.

The definition of madness is doing the same thing wrong many times ….im certain if you repeat this your next version will be stunning

 

[Bingy man]

I hate it.
View attachment 179972View attachment 179973
I forgot to allow for the kerf so now the drawer is too small for the calculator by 2mm, in my haste I forgot to sand the inside of the drawer before gluing it back together, the back panel of the drawer didn't glue on very well because the layer of ply didn't like being cut and tore up a lot, same issue with the back of the box, the finish from the saw blade is absolute dog cowpat, I've got more sanding to do than I've done in woodturning over the last year, I'm really considering throwing this out and doing something else, there's no way I can justify charging enough for this to cover my time let alone materials.
Lessons learnt
- ply is not a good material for a bandsaw box
- my current blade is not suitable in any way shape or form for curved cuts
- my blade/table are way off being square
- new sharp saw blade is vital
- I don't have the patience for all this glue up nonsense

Success will often come due to previous failures but. edit( with) the determination to succeed.

 

[Jameshow]

I hate it.
View attachment 179972View attachment 179973
I forgot to allow for the kerf so now the drawer is too small for the calculator by 2mm, in my haste I forgot to sand the inside of the drawer before gluing it back together, the back panel of the drawer didn't glue on very well because the layer of ply didn't like being cut and tore up a lot, same issue with the back of the box, the finish from the saw blade is absolute dog cowpat, I've got more sanding to do than I've done in woodturning over the last year, I'm really considering throwing this out and doing something else, there's no way I can justify charging enough for this to cover my time let alone materials.
Lessons learnt
- ply is not a good material for a bandsaw box
- my current blade is not suitable in any way shape or form for curved cuts
- my blade/table are way off being square
- new sharp saw blade is vital
- I don't have the patience for all this glue up nonsense

I have never seen the attraction of a bandsaw box.

Where as I love a Dovetail box.

Each to there own!

 

[Stigmorgan]

I have never seen the attraction of a bandsaw box.

Where as I love a Dovetail box.

Each to there own!

I have some boards being sent to me, cherry and walnut I think, may see if there's enough to make a drawer with those, in the meantime I'm going to glue up a blank and try my original idea on the lathe.
I'm not saying I'll never try bandsaw boxes again, I've seen some that look amazing but for now it's not for me with the space and tools/equipment/skills/patience I currently have

 

[Fergie 307]

Success will often come due to previous failures but. edit( with) the determination to succeed.

Wasn't it Einstein who said that failure is success in progress

 

[Stigmorgan]

I decided to go back to my original idea for this desk tidy so have spent the last few days working on it, using an offcut of the beech worktop I fitted in one of the classrooms I glued up a 150mm square by 280mm (ish) blank using 5minute epoxy once rounded off I turned a recessed tenon and mounted it in the chuck, hollowing was fairly awkward as I wanted to keep the tailstock support for as long as possible to avoid chatter making the hollowing uneven, I managed to get over halfway with some very dodgy tool angles and usage, once I had got half way through the 6th ring I had to stop, even my newest bowl gouge was struggling so I sanded up and finished what I had hollowed then turned a jam chuck and turned it round to remove the last inch or so and finish it, once off the jam chuck I was pretty impressed at how even the wall thickness is, I'd aimed for 10mm and I managed to get it at 9mm give or take 0.5mm after sanding and finishing, I was stuck between having the tube vertical or horizontal, I've settled on horizontal and cut out 2 ends from a board of a mahogany type wood which contrasts nicely with the beech.

The last 2 pics show the ends held in place to see how it looks, I quite like it but am undecided how to proceed, I can either glue it up then cut the lid to include the side panels or I cut the tube first and fit hinges and latch then glue the sides onto the lower part, this brings me to the hardware, does anyone have any suggestions for hinges? I'm open to any ideas, really want this to look amazing so decorative hinges would be nice.

 

[Cabinetman]

Not quite sure what it will be like, (pay attention at the back boy!) but I must say that’s an incredible bit of turning, I’ve done a bit here and there but there’s no way I would have tackled that.
Ian

 

[duke]

Some random thoughts:

• handmade crafts struggle to sell for a price appropriate to the time taken - this is partly because people compare the cost against products made abroad where the hourly rate is so much lower.
• the consumer finds it difficult to understand value / quality / etc. in a product, for example we have a rose arch in the garden, B&Q will sell a cheaply made one for £18 - we had ours made by a Somerset based blacksmith and it cost considerably more - but the difference is vast, it is rock solid, likely to last 5-10x as long, was made bespoke to the space, the metal fence alongside and by the rose garden was made to match with the same design and to fit exactly. If though the consumer doesn't see those differences, then they can't see why you would pay 10x the price for what appears to be the same item.
• giving a visual explanation of value increases selling prices - you see this in our world most obviously in pen makers who make pens from blanks with a historical interest (spitfire blade / SS Great Britain / clock-tower beams from Big Ben / etc.) - a certificate of authenticity adds ££ to the perceived value.
• what drives perception of value in the marketplace - looking at standard retail, what drives higher prices?
  • Brand - slap a Gucci label on something and even though costing the same to make it will sell at xx the price - how does the craft world copy that?
  • Presentation - from cereal sold in bigger boxes (half empty) to give the perception of greater value, to at its most extreme perhaps whisky sold in commemorative bottles for thousands more than the whisky is worth - look at any local shop and you will find easter eggs in fancy cardboard boxes / razors being sold in fancy packaging / etc. The essentials tend to be more basically packaged (ream of paper for example?!) but anything where a large part of the cost is in perceived value v. actual value - it will be driven by the packaging...
  • Exclusivity - make it hard to buy and people will pay more - sounds contradictory, but it works - If you are selling something as a limited edition / special edition / etc. then you can sell for more.
  • So - if you sell pens and have racks of beautiful oak pens on your market stall, place three (different colours) each in a box / brand them as your premium line / sell them as limited editions - and for almost no more cost you can double or treble the selling price.
• Presentation is more than just the item - from the items to the stall to the seller - everything influences how price is perceived.
  • Items - as above, present them better to sell for more
  • The stall - is it simply a table / table with a cloth, or is there more to it - what is the perception of a visitor, do you look amateur or professional?
  • The seller - whether dressing in 'work clothes' (e.g. in a turning smock / apron) or in casual clothes - how do you continue the brand. A seller wearing a smart polo shirt branded with the same logo as their stall says that they are a professional - it gives a reason to charge more - someone who looks as though they have just pulled themselves out of their workshop to turn up gives a more negative impression...

So, prices are not as simple as what does the market bear - as the maker / seller, you get to influence that price in many ways. The average consumer likes to be sold to - getting something which shouts high-end / exclusive validates their feelings about themselves and they are more likely to spend more money... If selling a bowl - is it just a bowl wrapped in bubble wrap or tissue paper - or is it a bowl in a branded cardboard box with certificate of authenticity and a simple leaflet or postcard talking about the maker - does the maker see each sale as just a one-off or look to sell again to someone who has already proven that they will pay the money and like the product - so gathering data for mailing lists / offering a Christmas present service / saying that you have an exclusive and limited range coming out in the Autumn - would they be interested in being the first to hear about it - all ways of doing that...


Websites:
Websites are an interesting concept for the average maker - realistically, will people buy from it or not - in most cases they won't - if you sell something repeatable and consistent like scented candles then it is quite easy to sell online - the punter knows and understands the brand and product, and as long as they feel that the scent will suit, they will buy. Selling wooden bowls / pens / other wooden objects is more challenging as generally people prefer to hold them / feel a sense of understanding of the object before buying. The exceptions tend to be people who have large followings on social media where their followers already feel from that engagement that they belong and have a sense of relationship with the maker - so will buy from them. An e-commerce website is easy to set up and run (Shopify is the best current option), but there is still a cost and unless you are prepared to put a lot of effort into marketing it then it is no different to building a shop in a remote woodland and building no roads to get there. You have to think about how you will get people onto the site / what will make them want to buy / what incentives might you need to give to encourage purchases / etc. Having a simple portfolio or gallery can be helpful (and is comparably cheaper to set up / run) but selling online is a whole new game for most makers...

A lot to digest and agree.

 

[Stigmorgan]

Not quite sure what it will be like, (pay attention at the back boy!) but I must say that’s an incredible bit of turning, I’ve done a bit here and there but there’s no way I would have tackled that.
Ian

I guess it's technically a segmented turning, the constant changes in grain direction within each ring took some getting used to, fortunately it sanded very easily so blemishes were quickly removed with 120grit, I really want the hinges and latch to be ornamental so looking for something that will work on a curved surface or that I can form to fit the curve, the beech is fairly soft so screw holes will likely need a bit of CA reinforcing/strengthening.
Thinking something like these for the latch and similar looking hingesbif I can find a nice set that will work
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/119...259c8bb69e9ba2c5aa9154da6de66b80%3A1197677893

 

[Bingy man]

Truly amazing work and I’m sure it will be finished to the same high standard . It doesn’t hurt to stop and have a day or two to consider your next move ..

 

[Stigmorgan]

Truly amazing work and I’m sure it will be finished to the same high standard . It doesn’t hurt to stop and have a day or two to consider your next move ..

Absolutely, the recipient isn't in a rush, she has said she is happy to wait

 

[Tris]

Would you have enough depth to use barrel hinges and a magnetic catch? That way nothing is seen on the surface and won't detract from the excellent surface finish.
Iirc the subject of box hardware came up a while ago. There's a box maker who also supplies really good hardware but can't remember the name. Tom somebody?

 

[Tris]

Found it, Andrew Crawford was the name mentioned

Thread 'Jewellery box hardware' https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/jewellery-box-hardware.144668/