Social distancing, .. what's that?

[Selwyn]

Thank you for posting that.

The results of that study don't prove what Rorsach is claiming.

It says:

"This paper does not prove that the peak in fatal infections in England and Wales preceded lockdown by several days"

Also the public, hospitals and care homes were putting social distancing in place well before lockdown

and

There never was a full lockdown

You can't prove that 6000 healthcare workers have died as a result of Covid yet you keep parroting it. They may have died with a positive covid test but that is not proof that they died as a result of covid. Proof please old boy

Furthermore Spain did have a full lockdown. Masks in and out and lots of fines etc. They still have covid! How much of a lockdown after a disease has become endemic do you want?? 3 years?

 

[RobinBHM]

ecause if you have flu and covid it gets all called "covid". If you had motor neurone disease, terminal cancer dementia and were aged 105 and had been in a care home for 25 years you would be called a covid death

I don't believe the ONS has recorded Covid deaths like that.

This is what the ONS say:

"The ONS provides figures based on all deaths registered involving COVID-19 according to death certification, whether in or out of hospital, for England and Wales"

So your statement is incorrect

 

[selly]

I don't believe the ONS has recorded Covid deaths like that.

This is what the ONS say:

"The ONS provides figures based on all deaths registered involving COVID-19 according to death certification, whether in or out of hospital, for England and Wales"

So your statement is incorrect

No I am quite correct thankyou. In fact you have just proven my point.

 

[RobinBHM]

They may have died with a positive covid test but that is not proof that they died as a result of covid

Yes, they could've done.

Most unlikely.

Let's look at situation in UK: every death of a healthcare worker is being investigated to see where they caught Covid and whether they had sufficient protective equipment.

"Ministers have asked medical examiners in England and Wales to review all deaths of frontline health and social care staff infected with the virus to determine whether the infection was caught as a result of their work.
The review, which started last month, is likely to cover more than 620 deaths including nurses, doctors and care home staff across England and Wales, since the beginning of March.

It could trigger a number of investigations by hospitals, the Health and Safety Executive, and coroners into the protection, or lack of, for staff during the pandemic when many hospitals ran out of protective masks and clothing for staff.

Hospitals have already been ordered to risk assess workers who may be more susceptible to the virus, such as those from a black and minority ethnic backgrounds or those with existing health conditions."


I'm not sure what you think healthcare workers might have randomly died from. Why would you think a non Covid death would be recorded as Covid.

And whatever the number, we know healthcare workers died from Covid, especially those receiving high viral loads in ICU.

There has never been a death of a healthcare worker recorded as being flu caught from a patient.

Which proves Covid is far worse than flu.

 

[RobinBHM]

No I am quite correct thankyou. In fact you have just proven my point.

Unfortunately you have not.

The post you made directly contradicts what it says on the ONS site.

I can only conclude either you or the ONS site is wrong.

 

[selly]

Unfortunately you have not.

The post you made directly contradicts what it says on the ONS site.

I can only conclude either you or the ONS site is wrong.

No. If a patient tested with covid within 60 days then they went down as a covid death. Govt then reduced it to 28 days.

It's not the full picture especially as sometimes bad flu can cause deaths to ebb and flow too. A 90 year old with comorbidities full of cancer is still a covid death.

 

[RobinBHM]

So there is an element of overlapping the death

I cant see how you can reach that conclusion

The ONS are very clear:

"The analysis of COVID-19, influenza and pneumonia deaths in this bulletin focuses on deaths where these conditions were the underlying cause of death (deaths “due to”), rather than deaths where the conditions were either the underlying cause or mentioned as a contributing factor (deaths “involving”). "

death occurrences between Jan and Aug 2020:

48,168 coronavirus
13619 pneumonia
394 influenza

The highest number of deaths due to influenza and pneumonia occurred in January 2020,

Where is the overlap, there isnt one?

most covid deaths occurred outside of the flu season, so its not true to claim some may have dies of flu not covid.

 

[RobinBHM]

No. If a patient tested with covid within 60 days then they went down as a covid death. Govt then reduced it to 28 days

That is incorrect.

"The ONS provides figures based on all deaths registered involving COVID-19 according to death certification, whether in or out of hospital, for England and Wales"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...cesinenglandandwales/uptoweekending10july2020
you are talking about the govts recording methods, not the ONS -who use death certificate for their data.

 

[RobinBHM]

I heard on the radio that HMRC has identified £10 billion of fraud through furlough etc and that is just in their first investigation.

are you claiming that means covid is not real?

 

[selly]

I cant see how you can reach that conclusion

The ONS are very clear:

"The analysis of COVID-19, influenza and pneumonia deaths in this bulletin focuses on deaths where these conditions were the underlying cause of death (deaths “due to”), rather than deaths where the conditions were either the underlying cause or mentioned as a contributing factor (deaths “involving”). "

death occurrences between Jan and Aug 2020:

48,168 coronavirus
13619 pneumonia
394 influenza

The highest number of deaths due to influenza and pneumonia occurred in January 2020,

Where is the overlap, there isnt one?

most covid deaths occurred outside of the flu season, so its not true to claim some may have dies of flu not covid.

Because they didn't test for influenza they don't routinely do this for octogenarians. People of a certain age will die of a myriad of infections. But if the test said covid it would be a covid death. There is no overlap because nearly all of it is attributed to covid which is just daft. I knew a 85 year old granny with dementia who went down as a covid death.

No one is denying covid caused extra deaths., what they are saying is the same likely to happen again? Is the reaction proportionate?

Now that covid is endemic it appears not be as voracious as before.

 

[selly]

That is incorrect.

"The ONS provides figures based on all deaths registered involving COVID-19 according to death certification, whether in or out of hospital, for England and Wales"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...cesinenglandandwales/uptoweekending10july2020
you are talking about the govts recording methods, not the ONS -who use death certificate for their data.

They say themselves "deaths involving covid". And they are constantly saying "with comorbidities". But of course you don't seem think comorbidities can kill someone!

 

[artie]

Please you kindly point precisely what I have ignored.

It's been explained repeatedly to you by different posters that the death figures are with covid not from covid, yet you continue to repeat the same stuff. It doesn't matter how often you repeat it it's still wrong

Please can you point to "errors" you claim I have made. I have made no errors in response to your posts.

You claim that vast measures have been introduced to counter act covid but none to counteract flu.
Again different posters have pointed out that the measures to counteract covid would also counteract flu, but still you repeat it.

As I have mentioned, ad hominem attacks do not further the debate at all, It is a commonly used method used to disguise a lack of a counter argument.

Please can you refrain from further ad hominems as some of us would like to continue the debate rather than have the thread locked.

I have not attacked you I bear you no ill will, I merely added a throwaway remark at the end of my post.
I would also like to continue the debate but repeating the same nonsense after it's been repeatedly pointed out to you is not debate.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Excess mortality for USA from all sources:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
The yellow line shows the threshold for excess deaths - notice that the actual rate is significantly below the line for most of the period shown: lots of people still alive, just waiting for for a helpful push? Looks like it's all over bar the shouting - but there is a lot of shouting. I haven't found a UK equivalent yet...if anyone knows where to look, it would be interesting to see similar data.

 

[RobinBHM]

I've told you already. Long Covid isn't a defined llness

I did not suggest it was.

Long Covid is the term used to describe the long term effects that Covid has on some people.

And yes that does happen
And it does happen in significant number
No it is not typical of less serious infections like flu

 

[RobinBHM]

You claim that vast measures have been introduced to counter act covid but none to counteract flu.
Again different posters have pointed out that the measures to counteract covid would also counteract flu, bu

I repeat it because it is correct.

You are using dishonest debating to make your point
because:

1 all comparisons with flu are using historical data for flu deaths when no measures have been used to stop flu

2. If you want use this year for data then great, rates of flu are very low.....because of social distancing and because it's not the flu season.

How about you stop your dishonest arguments and give me a direct answer to the above.
If you don't answer, I shall politely be asking until you give a straight answer.

It is getting rather tiresome seeing you and others squirm and wriggle over this.

You argue Covid is not much worse than flu, but can provide no evidence whatsoever that it true.

 

[RobinBHM]

I have not attacked you I bear you no ill will

I did not say attack

I said ad hominem attack.

I would also like to continue the debate but repeating the same nonsense

Another ad hominem attack.

You are the one making claims but cannot back them up with evidence, not me.

Now please answer my post regarding comparisons of flu with Covid, which you refuse to give a straight answer

 

[RobinBHM]

Excess mortality for USA from all sources:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
The yellow line shows the threshold for excess deaths - notice that the actual rate is significantly below the line for most of the period shown: lots of people still alive, just waiting for for a helpful push? Looks like it's all over bar the shouting - but there is a lot of shouting. I haven't found a UK equivalent yet...if anyone knows where to look, it would be interesting to see similar data.

View attachment 94192

That is meaningless.

 

[Rorschach]

Flogging a dead horse comes to mind chaps, a certain person is wilfully ignoring answers that go against his preconceived ideas and asking for evidence that either cannot exist or is meaningless in order to somehow appear superior. I stopped engaging as it was pointless, he reply about furlough fraud says it all really.

 

[selly]

I did not suggest it was.

Long Covid is the term used to describe the long term effects that Covid has on some people.

And yes that does happen
And it does happen in significant number
No it is not typical of less serious infections like flu

Give me some proof of that please

 

[FatmanG]

You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink comes to my mind.
The WHO has changed its position on lockdowns now I believe TN first mentioned. Tedross the top man has said that we will never return to normal even with a vaccine citing climate change demands as the reason. Gates last week posted an essay saying the same on his website. Biden is running on the green new deal. The world is run by corrupt people who do not care about the population. Its a swamp filled with predators feeding off humanity. If biden wins the presidency the USA will become a 3rd world country and we will follow. I honestly believe the crippling and destruction of the west is the play and funny how it would be achieved by a virus originating in China. I think Trump is the only hope to save the west from communism. I truly truly hope I'm wrong.