Social distancing, .. what's that?

[Selwyn]

You are implying long Covid is simply in people's heads.....gee

Do you think the following is a lie then:

Persistent health problems reported following acute COVID-19 disease include:

• respiratory symptoms and conditions such as chronic cough, shortness of breath, lung inflammation and fibrosis, and pulmonary vascular disease
• cardiovascular symptoms and disease such as chest tightness, acute myocarditis and heart failure
• protracted loss or change of smell and taste
• mental health problems including depression, anxiety and cognitive difficulties
• inflammatory disorders such as myalgia, multisystem inflammatory syndrome, Guillain-Barre syndrome, or neuralgic amyotrophy
• gastrointestinal disturbance with diarrhoea
• continuing headaches
• fatigue, weakness and sleeplessness
• liver and kidney dysfunction
• clotting disorders and thrombosis
• lymphadenopathy
• skin rashes

My niece works in NHS, 2 colleagues have long term health issues from Covid, one has heart damage and the other has lung damage, one is on long term sick leave the other has had to give up work.

More that recovering from any respiratory disease can be hard for an unlucky few. Nothing controversial about that

 

[Jake]

More that recovering from any respiratory disease can be hard for an unlucky few. Nothing controversial about that

It's not only a respiratory disease. It attacks all sorts of organs.

 

[RobinBHM]

No no no.
I don't mind if you are scared, I don't mind if you misunderstand, I don't mind if you stick to your guns even when you're wrong, but don't tell me that positive means negative, that's a step too far, even for you.

May I respectfully suggest you think a little longer before posting.

Raab clearly misspoke, this is Boris Johnson discussing the same subject:

PM Boris Johnson has said airport tests would identify only 7% of cases and so could give a "false sense of security".

And Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said testing was not a "silver bullet".

"That's why we have the quarantine," Mr Raab told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show.

 

[Selwyn]

It's not only a respiratory disease. It attacks all sorts of organs.

I'm sure for some people it does

 

[RobinBHM]

More that recovering from any respiratory disease can be hard for an unlucky few. Nothing controversial about that

Please can you give me some examples of "any respiratory disease" which:

1. Overloads hospitals and critical care
2. Has managed to kill 6000 health care workers globally
3 May lead to Cytokine storm

 

[FatmanG]

You are implying long Covid is simply in people's heads.....gee

Do you think the following is a lie then:

Persistent health problems reported following acute COVID-19 disease include:

• respiratory symptoms and conditions such as chronic cough, shortness of breath, lung inflammation and fibrosis, and pulmonary vascular disease
• cardiovascular symptoms and disease such as chest tightness, acute myocarditis and heart failure
• protracted loss or change of smell and taste
• mental health problems including depression, anxiety and cognitive difficulties
• inflammatory disorders such as myalgia, multisystem inflammatory syndrome, Guillain-Barre syndrome, or neuralgic amyotrophy
• gastrointestinal disturbance with diarrhoea
• continuing headaches
• fatigue, weakness and sleeplessness
• liver and kidney dysfunction
• clotting disorders and thrombosis
• lymphadenopathy
• skin rashes

My niece works in NHS, 2 colleagues have long term health issues from Covid, one has heart damage and the other has lung damage, one is on long term sick leave the other has had to give up work.

I said who is to know what the cause of long covid is and gave a possible scenario and since nobody knows why it occurs it could be down to picking their nose GEE
I have bilateral DVTs in my legs as a consequence of a car accident, passengers on long flights suffer dvts regularly but I don't see travel being banned. Life holds risk it has to be managed. Nothing and I mean not a single solitary word you have typed has convinced me that the response to SARS cov 2 has been right or proportionate at any stage. Emptying hospitals of the elderly into nursing homes condemning 1000s to death. Locking down and crippling the economy ruining small businesses and no help for the self employed.. The constant fear mongering in daily death tolls using manipulated data. The use of the number of cases to continue the fear when the deaths disappeared for the summer and from the TV screens. Now its the testing of perfectly healthy young people and calling them cases and the ogregious act of now blaming them for spreading and killing Granny. Now its up to 10k fines to keep you in line. You Robin are a mouth mouthpiece for all of the above. I have nothing further to say to you except open your f###### eyes lad

 

[RobinBHM]

he rest were a mixture of known comorbidities, unknown comorbidities, extremely high exposure (ie health staff) and then another very small portion of people who were just very very unlucky being young and fit but got unlucky.

You seem to have forgotten the 600 hospital and social care workers that died.

And the people suffering long term effects from covid

From the Telegraph:
"Long Covid" is genuine and leaves patients suffering debilitating symptoms for many months ... tracker app showed that between 200,000 and 500,000 people in the UK are currently living.....


And that is despite huge interventions to prevent spread.

 

[RobinBHM]

I said who is to know what the cause of long covid is and gave a possible scenario and since nobody knows why it occurs it could be down to picking their nose

Errr the cause of long Covid is.....Covid.

Are you trying to claim the serious long term problem people are having after Covid, is somehow mistaken for some other cause.

You seem to be clutching at straws

 

[Terry - Somerset]

This topic is full of self delusion and denial, short on honesty, selective statistics, questionable minority theories, and simple political point scoring disguised as rational debate.

Simplistic claims like "it's no worse than flu" are demonstrable rubbish.

The elderly and vulnerable cannot be permanently shielded or isolated.

The virus does kill - probably less than the first wave but it still kills, mainly the elderly. Long covid is still largely an unknown.

Lock down has severe consequences for jobs and the economy. It disadvantages particularly the young and families.

Let it rip will lead to deaths. We don't know with precision, but possibly in a range of 25-200k over the next 12 months.

The NHS is not an infinite resource. Whilst we can build Nightigales quickly, we can't train the extra staff in short order. Diverting NHS resources to treat Covid denies the capacity to other needs.

IMHO a middle path is the correct one to follow - explicitly acknowledge that there will be excess deaths and that there will be significant disruption to economic and social activity.

Without an explicit policy on Covid treatment, the outcome is a random who shouts loudest, where you happen to live lottery.

Very clear priorities need to be agreed/set - is treating Covid more important thant (say) cancer treatment. At what point is Covid treatment denied - eg: over 85 years old and you are simply made comfortable whilst nature takes its course.

Or perhaps I am entirely naive - rather than honesty most may prefer the illusory - do what you are told and it will all be ok.

 

[FatmanG]

Errr the cause of long Covid is.....Covid.

Are you trying to claim the serious long term problem people are having after Covid, is somehow mistaken for some other cause.

You seem to be clutching at straws

That blindfold is rendering you illiterate.

 

[Cabinetman]

This topic is full of self delusion and denial, short on honesty, selective statistics, questionable minority theories, and simple political point scoring disguised as rational debate.

Simplistic claims like "it's no worse than flu" are demonstrable rubbish.

The elderly and vulnerable cannot be permanently shielded or isolated.

The virus does kill - probably less than the first wave but it still kills, mainly the elderly. Long covid is still largely an unknown.

Lock down has severe consequences for jobs and the economy. It disadvantages particularly the young and families.

Let it rip will lead to deaths. We don't know with precision, but possibly in a range of 25-200k over the next 12 months.

The NHS is not an infinite resource. Whilst we can build Nightigales quickly, we can't train the extra staff in short order. Diverting NHS resources to treat Covid denies the capacity to other needs.

IMHO a middle path is the correct one to follow - explicitly acknowledge that there will be excess deaths and that there will be significant disruption to economic and social activity.

Without an explicit policy on Covid treatment, the outcome is a random who shouts loudest, where you happen to live lottery.

Very clear priorities need to be agreed/set - is treating Covid more important thant (say) cancer treatment. At what point is Covid treatment denied - eg: over 85 years old and you are simply made comfortable whilst nature takes its course.

Or perhaps I am entirely naive - rather than honesty most may prefer the illusory - do what you are told and it will all be ok.

Unfortunately Terry is probably right and we need to follow a middle path, Personally, I’m of the let it rip side of the argument as long as we protect the elderly as best we can, it’s the dishonesty and the control that I really hate.
And no I’m not young!

 

[artie]

May I respectfully suggest you think a little longer before posting.

Raab clearly misspoke, this is Boris Johnson discussing the same subject:

PM Boris Johnson has said airport tests would identify only 7% of cases and so could give a "false sense of security".

And Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said testing was not a "silver bullet".

"That's why we have the quarantine," Mr Raab told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show.

I always think before I post, do you?
Are you now saying that testing misses 93% of infected people tested?
Are the tests proposed at airports different from other tests?

 

[RobinBHM]

I always think before I post, do you?
Are you now saying that testing misses 93% of infected people tested?
Are the tests proposed at airports different from other tests?

It does rather seem that you don't think before you post.

This is the comment he made:
" airports is 'the very high false positive rate' and adds 'only 7% of tests will be successful in identifying those who have the virus"

I am not sure what interpretation you are making, I think you are claiming it means the test is only 7% accurate, although it doesn't actually say that. In fact what he says is contradictory.

Do you realise there is a difference between test accuracy and operational test accuracy?

 

[SammyQ]

May I please thank Jake, Robin and Terry for presenting, very patiently and thoroughly, the calm voice of reason in the face of nigh-rabid denial and polarised, delusional opinion.

Sam

 

[RobinBHM]

dishonesty and the control that I really hate.

I certainly doesn't help when some governments aren't honest with the public.
Neither does it help with public support for government when they are seen to be not following the rules....I'm thinking the other side of the Atlantic.

Control- the problem is reducing the spread of the virus requires a collective effort. A collective effort ignores personal choice, which many people don't like.

For example: in a full lockdown, we may be told to " stay at home", well you might argue: "if I pop down town, what difference can it make, the place is empty".........Bournemouth beach

 

[RobinBHM]

May I please thank Jake, Robin and Terry for presenting, very patiently and thoroughly, the calm voice of reason in the face of nigh-rabid denial and polarised, delusional opinion.

Sam

Nobody on any side of the pandemic debate wants lockdowns, economic destruction, or other illnesses being left untreated.

We all want it over, but there are no magic solutions.
There is no point claiming herd immunity is the great answer unless it is backed up with realistic proposals explaining how vulnerable people can be protected. All evidence so far says they can't.


The main frustratration I have is the use of subjective words used to build an argument: "fearmongering" "hysterical".....and the misrepresentation of stats used to make dishonest comparisons with influenza.

 

[selly]

Please can you give me some examples of "any respiratory disease" which:

1. Overloads hospitals and critical care
2. Has managed to kill 6000 health care workers globally
3 May lead to Cytokine storm

Well certainly influenza sometimes, comes close to overwhelming the NHS in a bad year. Of course you may like to pretend hospitals are usually empty

 

[selly]

May I please thank Jake, Robin and Terry for presenting, very patiently and thoroughly, the calm voice of reason in the face of nigh-rabid denial and polarised, delusional opinion.

Sam

The data isn't there though.

 

[selly]

You seem to have forgotten the 600 hospital and social care workers that died.

And the people suffering long term effects from covid

From the Telegraph:
"Long Covid" is genuine and leaves patients suffering debilitating symptoms for many months ... tracker app showed that between 200,000 and 500,000 people in the UK are currently living.....


And that is despite huge interventions to prevent spread.

I think you will find I mentioned the health staff straight away

 

[selly]

I certainly doesn't help when some governments aren't honest with the public.
Neither does it help with public support for government when they are seen to be not following the rules....I'm thinking the other side of the Atlantic.

Control- the problem is reducing the spread of the virus requires a collective effort. A collective effort ignores personal choice, which many people don't like.

For example: in a full lockdown, we may be told to " stay at home", well you might argue: "if I pop down town, what difference can it make, the place is empty".........Bournemouth beach

But places that did your desired full lockdown in extremis still had problems after. The virus is now endemic. Just accept this. Lockdown and release is a poor tool.

It is also no longer a pandemic but just a nasty new virus. If you think you can stop a virus then I look forward to you stopping the wind too. Its a seasonal coronavirus arrived last October or November built up massively and will now always ebb and flow