Shoulder plane technique

[Chris_belgium]

Hello,
am planning to make a drive way gate later this year, and was in my shop this afternoon doing some 'testing' on how to construct the mortice & tennons.

I made a jig and used a router to rout out the waste, keeping about 0,5mm away from the marked line, the 'ragged' edge you see is actually the line from my marking knife.

Plan was to clean them up with my shoulder plane. But this did not go well at all!! Shoulder plane I'm using is the HNT gordon 1 1/4inch shoulder plane. Problem is, even with the smallest possible blade depth I still can't make a proper shaving, I get terrible chatter and have to use a lot of force to get the plane going. Best result was some dust being shaved off, nowhere near proper shavings.

I have flattened the back of the blade, sharpened the blade to 30°, I also noticed that after I tried it a couple of times, the blade edge was jagged, when I resharpened and got a nice straight edge, a couple of tries later it was the same story.

So what am I'm doing wrong? Blade not sharp enough, wood too difficult (aphselia) to plane for a novice like me, ....

Another question, is there a trick to avoid tearout at the end of the cut? Clamping a piece of scrap wood offcourse avoids this, but is 'cumbersome' is there a faster trick to avoid this?

Thank you for your time, Chirstof.

 

[MikeG.]

Christof,

I know I'll get jumped on for saying this, but I reckon you are using the wrong tool. I would clean this up by paring with a sharp chisel, working down from the outside of the wood onto the face of the tenon.

Actually, because I use a radial arm saw to cut tenons, the whole of the cleaning up process is done by paring. In the extremely rare event that shoulders need cleaning up I would do as I have just described. The faces of the tenon, which are scored by the multiple cuts of the RAS blade, are really easy to pare very accurately with a wide chisel at a very low angle (with the worked face held vertically so that all the forces go down into the bench).

As I've said elsewhere, if I had a shoulder plane I am sure I could find some uses for it........but probably planing the shoulders of a tenon wouldn't be one of them.

Mike

 

[Vann]

I have flattened the back of the blade, sharpened the blade to 30°, I also noticed that after I tried it a couple of times, the blade edge was jagged, when I resharpened and got a nice straight edge, a couple of tries later it was the same story.

I'm no expert, but in lieu of any other suggestions, it's my understanding that edge breakout is the result of the iron angle being too low for the timber type/cut (I have no idea whether aphselia is hard or softwood). Maybe a microbevel at 32 or even 35 degrees will be enogh to reduce or eliminate this chipping of the cutting edge.

Is your blade O1, A2, or something else (A2 wears better but breaks out if worked too hard at low angles- O1 holds together better at low angles but wears faster).

Regards, Vann.

 

[woodbloke]

As Mike G said, a sharp chisel is the way to do this - Rob

 

[Chris_belgium]

Christof,



As I've said elsewhere, if I had a shoulder plane I am sure I could find some uses for it........but probably planing the shoulders of a tenon wouldn't be one of them.

Mike

, wish I'd known this before I ordered the Shoulder plane 'ideally for cleaning up shoulders of tenons!'

So what exactly is the use of a shoulder plane then?

 

[Chris_belgium]

Is your blade O1, A2, or something else (A2 wears better but breaks out if worked too hard at low angles- O1 holds together better at low angles but wears faster).

This is what the HNT website says about the blade: 'BLADE: 1¼ inch wide x 3/16 inch thick tool steel Rc 62-64' http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcat114sh.htm

The angle of the blade is 60°, so I think it being to low is not the issue here. I even tried flipping the blade around so it's sits at 90° but all I get is dust, no shavings.

Aphselia is a hardwood wich is very weather resistant, comparable to padouk,...

 

[woodbloke]

Christof,



As I've said elsewhere, if I had a shoulder plane I am sure I could find some uses for it........but probably planing the shoulders of a tenon wouldn't be one of them.

Mike

, wish I'd known this before I ordered the Shoulder plane 'ideally for cleaning up shoulders of tenons!'

So what exactly is the use of a shoulder plane then?

I use mine for cleaning up rebates etc. The problem with using it to do tenon shoulders is that the referance surface (ie the surface of the tenon) needs to be dead flat and square. If it's not, then there's a big danger that the shoulder will also be skewed. Much easier IMO to do shoulders with the widest chisel in your armoury...I use a 25mm LN - Rob

 

[Philly]

Chris
A shoulder plane is a perfect tool for cleaning up the shoulders of tenons - it is its main purpose.
Have you tried your plane out on long grain? Can you get full shavings this way? I have two Gordon shoulder planes and have no problems taking end grain shavings with them. To me it sounds like the blade isn't holding an edge.
If you can't take shavings with it then there is a problem with the plane - you have chosen the correct tool.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Chris_belgium]

Chris
A shoulder plane is a perfect tool for cleaning up the shoulders of tenons - it is its main purpose.
Have you tried your plane out on long grain? Can you get full shavings this way? I have two Gordon shoulder planes and have no problems taking end grain shavings with them. To me it sounds like the blade isn't holding an edge.
If you can't take shavings with it then there is a problem with the plane - you have chosen the correct tool.
Hope this helps
Philly

I quickly tried on long grain, can't get full length shavings, but the blade is jagged from my tries last night across the grain. I'll sharpen the blade again tonight and give it another try, any ideas as to why the blade becomes jagged so quickly after sharpening?

I also find it difficult to set the blade depth on this type of plane, any tricks on how to do it easier?

And last thing, are full length end grain shavings possible with this type of plane?

cross grain

long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:

 

[Vann]

This is what the HNT website says about the blade: 'BLADE: 1¼ inch wide x 3/16 inch thick tool steel Rc 62-64' http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcat114sh.htm

The tool steel blade will be harder wearing, but also more brittle than O1 steel i.e. the tough steel particles at the point of the iron will break away more easily.

The angle of the blade is 60°, so I think it being to low is not the issue here. I even tried flipping the blade around so it's sits at 90° but all I get is dust, no shavings.

So the iron is Bevel Down (I'm unfamiliar with HNT planes) and is set at 60°, but the iron itself is ground/honed at 30°. Being Bevel Down the honed angle can be altered without changing the cutting angle of 60°. I suggest you play with the honed angle (try 32°, 35° or even 40°) so that the cutting edge of the iron is more substanial, and therefore more able to withstand the forces of a 60° attack on the hard Aphselia.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[frugal]

long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:

Just out of interest, how are you holding the wood that you are trying to plane? The photo seems to indicate that the end of the piece is not really supported by anything. The chatter could be coming from the wood flexing due to lack of support.

 

[Ironballs]

I've used both my shoulder plane and a wide chisel for cleaning up tenon shoulders, if your tenon has been cut accurately then the plane is the best tool for the job.

What I can't understand is why your plane iron is refusing to hold an edge and keeps breaking up. I assume you haven't used a higher speed dry grinder to form the bevel?

 

[Philly]

Chris
Crossgrain you will alwya get this kind of surface (unless you have a plane with a skewed iron like the #140). With the shoulderplane lying on its side onthe tenon you should be able to square up the shoulder by taking shavings (maybe clamping scrap stock at the far side to prevent it spelching). Yes, the plane should easily take end grain shavings - not dust.
To me it sounds like the iron has been heat treated wrong and is not holding an edge. If you can take one shaving and then it stops cutting that is the definitely the problem.
The plane iron comes from Gordon ground at 30 degrees - this should be fine for your application.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Chris_belgium]

long grain, you can clearly see the marks from the jagged blade:

Just out of interest, how are you holding the wood that you are trying to plane? The photo seems to indicate that the end of the piece is not really supported by anything. The chatter could be coming from the wood flexing due to lack of support.

this is a test board wich is clamped to the 8cm x 14,5cm piece where I'm cutting the tenon on. So there is no flexing.

 

[Chris_belgium]

I've used both my shoulder plane and a wide chisel for cleaning up tenon shoulders, if your tenon has been cut accurately then the plane is the best tool for the job.

What I can't understand is why your plane iron is refusing to hold an edge and keeps breaking up. I assume you haven't used a higher speed dry grinder to form the bevel?

No only waterstones, there has been no heat involved.

 

[Chris_belgium]

Chris
Crossgrain you will alwya get this kind of surface (unless you have a plane with a skewed iron like the #140). With the shoulderplane lying on its side onthe tenon you should be able to square up the shoulder by taking shavings (maybe clamping scrap stock at the far side to prevent it spelching). Yes, the plane should easily take end grain shavings - not dust.
To me it sounds like the iron has been heat treated wrong and is not holding an edge. If you can take one shaving and then it stops cutting that is the definitely the problem.
The plane iron comes from Gordon ground at 30 degrees - this should be fine for your application.
Hope this helps
Philly

Back from my shop, just spent over 45 minutes resharpening, started on 220 to get rid of the nicks in de edge then to 800, 1200 and finally 6000.

Didn't use microbevels, just sharpened/honed the entire bevel to 30°

Before sharpening:

After sharpening:

After some testing, maybe attempted (all failed offcourse ) to make 30 or so shavings.

Immediately after sharpening, I tried some long grain planing, result was something that looked like a shaving, but still far from full length shaving.

 

[Philly]

Chris
The blade looks like it collapsing after a few shavings. I'd email these photo's to the dealer you bought the plane from and ask for a replacement iron (or plane!)
Cheers
Philly

 

[Woody Alan]

Very hard to tell from the pics and sequence but the back (face) of the blade doesn't look polished, if that hasn't been flattened in such a way as to remove the wire edge formed during honing that may explain the quick deformation. I would also want to hone a final microbevel (secondary bevel) to get the edge. It's asking a lot to do a full flatten through the grits on that amount of surface area on one bevel and unneccessary.
Without wishing to be rude (hard to avoid on a forum ) how much experience have you had sharpening plane blades? I think some local assistance could be useful certainly if nothing else other than to confirm the inadequacy of the blade.
By the way it looks as if you are planing an old piece of wood which has a finish on it (or dirty) that certainly won't help.

Alan

 

[Oryxdesign]

Is that Iroko that you are planing?

 

[ivan]

Philly, why does a shoulder plane (designed to plane end grain) have a 60 deg bed angle? When shooting end grain (a similar cut) with my No 9 I give the "bevel up" blade a 10 deg back bevel, so the bedding angle is effectively 10 deg, with the sharpening bevel at 30 deg, effectively 20 deg lower than the Gordon.