Shoesmith

[Jacob]

That's a fairly neat depiction of loony-right "blame culture" whereby the solution to all problems is to find someone to blame and then hang, sack or otherwise dispose of them. Usually accompanied by a lot of bad temper and righteous indignation.
Might work for simple stuff like football but not good enough in the real world where things are more complicated.
One dead baby clearly does equal failure - in this case failure at many levels with many people (including case workers, medicos, police) missing their cues. Vilifying one scapegoat doesn't solve the problem.
It's probable that Shoesmith, as a tough-minded and hitherto successful operator in her field, could have been part of the solution, rather than being dismissed as the problem.

 

[Digit]

Vilifying one scapegoat doesn't solve the problem.

Your solution then appears to be leave her in place and discipline her subordinates

It's probable that Shoesmith, as a tough-minded and hitherto successful operator in her field, could have been part of the solution, rather than being dismissed as the problem.

I would point out Jacob that your loony right blame culture includes that extreme rightist group the Haringey Council and Ed Balls!
Of course there is always the loony left alternative where the prisons are full of victims and where no one is to blame for anything.
We are supposed to live in a democracy Jacob, that means where the will of the majority rules! That puts you on the wrong side, again.
Perhaps your view on the other post I supplied also supports the poor 'victim' who was required to accept punishment for his actions, boo hoo!
The only thing that surprises me about that judge's decision is the time it has taken our legal masterminds to realise that Blair and Co had supplied them with a 'Get out of Jail free card!'
Who will be the first murderer/rapist/ terrorist to make the came claim I wonder?
Should at least save on prison costs, the Home Sec will able to close 'em!
Perhaps Clegg and his dim Dems will now agree to look again at the act.
(I doubt it says he.)

Roy.

 

[woodshavings]

There is a clear process within employment law for dismissing an individual
In the Shoesmith case, she should of been subject to a disciplinary hearing and then dismissed for gross misconduct (incompetence).
She would of had the right to appeal the dismissal, when the finding of gross misconduct would most likely be upheld and thus been fairly dismissed.
Balls did not follow any of this, and thus the dismissal was unfair in law.
A tribunal doesn't usually second guess the judgement of the employer, it makes sure the correct procedure is followed. In this case it wasn't.
John

 

[Digit]

Yep! Eddie boy failed to follow the rules, another incompetant!
She's also claiming sex descrimination 'cos she was replaced by a man, unfortunately her position is/was not gender specific and any normal person would throw that out, (High Court Judges excepted of course.)

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

.. and then dismissed for gross misconduct (incompetence).....

Not necessarily, you would have had to wait for the outcome of the hearing.
To me it looks like institutions and system failing, with just about everyone to blame. One thing is certain - everybody involved at every level would wish things had turned out better and would be very motivated to prevent the same thing happening again.
Blame culture, scapegoating, turns attention away from real causes and the remedies.

 

[RogerS]

.. and then dismissed for gross misconduct (incompetence).....

Not necessarily, you would have had to wait for the outcome of the hearing.
To me it looks like institutions and system failing, with just about everyone to blame. One thing is certain - everybody involved at every level would wish things had turned out better and would be very motivated to prevent the same thing happening again.
Blame culture, scapegoating, turns attention away from real causes and the remedies.

I'm not sure quite what planet you're on, Jacob, or what tortuous thought processes go through your mind but if:

1) a post was created specifically to address issues of failure in a local govt department

2) those failures continued to occur viz Baby P

then logically (I know that that concept eludes you whenever it suits you), whoever was recruited to fulfil (1) failed.

Pure and simple.

She did not do the job that she was recruited to do.

She failed.

End of.

 

[Digit]

You pipped me at the post Rog!

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

Simplistic "blame culture" logic.

I lifted this from another forum:
"Why do you say that it was her job to prevent the death of a child? As pure
rhetoric that might be correct, just as it is the job of our police to
prevent all murders, all knifings, all robberies. The fact that there will
inevitably be times when such events do occur doesn't mean we should keep
sacking our Chief Constables, now does it? "

 

[RogerS]

Simplistic "blame culture" logic.

I lifted this from another forum:
"Why do you say that it was her job to prevent the death of a child? As pure
rhetoric that might be correct, just as it is the job of our police to
prevent all murders, all knifings, all robberies. The fact that there will
inevitably be times when such events do occur doesn't mean we should keep
sacking our Chief Constables, now does it? "

A poor analogy. The post of Chief Constable has been part of the existing infrastructure of the police for ages.

Her post was specifically created to address these issues. There is no wiggle room, Jacob.

What a wonderful whacky world of Labour and Guardianista's. The Holy Mantra.....No-one is to blame.

 

[Digit]

And that Jacob simply proves that no matter how stupid you are someone will support you.
Chief constables etc DO get dismissed if they are too bad.
How is it that a Minister of State holds her to blame, her employers hold her to blame and Ofsted hold her to blame and you don't thus they are all wrong, with more info than you are likely to have, and you are right?
Hitler probably never killed anyone with his own hands, same with Mladic, how bad do they have to be before you would blame them and hold them to account?
Would you give Fred the shred his job back?
Is nobody in your world ever to be held responsible for their actions?
Should the killer of 12 yr old Amy Houston be allowed to remain here despite his crimes or should he be 'blamed' and deported?
Does the word Justice actually mean anything to you?

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Her post was specifically created to address these issues.

Nobody would expect 100% success i.e. no child deaths at all. That is completely unrealistic/simplistic and baby P case had been going on for some time before she was even in the job
She had previously been successful with turning around some failing schools which is why she was in this job

What a wonderful whacky world of Labour and Guardianista's. The Holy Mantra.....No-one is to blame.

I said that everybody was to blame including Balls IMHO - it was systemic, not just one person. She was supported by Haringey council and local school heads, until they too were overwhelmed by "blame-culture" media feeding frenzy (just like you yourself!). Balls was under that influence too.

 

[Digit]

until they too were overwhelmed by "blame-culture" media feeding frenzy (just like you yourself!). Balls was under that influence too.

So all these people are so weak kneed that they give in to people and do what those people want. Great! Bring on the EU referendum!

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

until they too were overwhelmed by "blame-culture" media feeding frenzy (just like you yourself!). Balls was under that influence too.

So all these people are so weak kneed that they give in to people and do what those people want. Great! Bring on the EU referendum!

Roy.

The big problem is that what people think they want is often what the media is telling them they should want. That's why they all so often seem to be singing from the same sheet. Brainwashing. 1984 etc. Plus the fact that simple ideas are easier to handle.

Our Sharon was on the radio today, sticking two fingers up at blame culture. A brave thing to be doing at this time. Good for her.

 

[RogerS]

until they too were overwhelmed by "blame-culture" media feeding frenzy (just like you yourself!). Balls was under that influence too.

So all these people are so weak kneed that they give in to people and do what those people want. Great! Bring on the EU referendum!

Roy.

The big problem is that what people think they want is often what the media is telling them they should want. That's why they all so often seem to be singing from the same sheet. Brainwashing. 1984 etc. Plus the fact that simple ideas are easier to handle.

Our Sharon was on the radio today, sticking two fingers up at blame culture. A brave thing to be doing at this time. Good for her.

Well, she would say that, wouldn't she. "It wasn't MY fault" she cried. Er..actually, yes, it WAS your fault Ms Shoesmith.

 

[Jacob]

..... Er..actually, yes, it WAS your fault Ms Shoesmith.

Er.. actually, no it wasn't. It was the mother and her mates.
Yes there is a more general responsibility spread amongst those involved who might have acted differently, including Sharon, and including Balls for that matter. Should he have resigned?

 

[Digit]

Perhaps Jacob you have a public service type job where a balls up just alters your bonus, the rest of us had to earn the right to stay in our job.
I will make the same point yet again to you and to her, she has not been absolved of responsibility! Got that?
The only reason that your Sharon is about to be handed a large wad of tax payer's money is because yet another incompetant failed to do his job properly! Got it?

No it wasn't. It was the mother and her mates.

Who are now in prison, but the SS took on the job of protecting the child from them, did they not? Didn't they do well?
It's unfortunate that the boy friend doesn't have any children otherwise he could claim a right to be released under section 8 of the Human Rights Act and walk, shame isn't it. This is the world that you and your kind are creating Jacob, i hope you're proud of it.

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

... she has not been absolved of responsibility!

neither has the rest of the team nor Balls himself. Got that?

The only reason that your Sharon is about to be handed a large wad of tax payer's money is because yet another incompetant failed to do his job properly!

It's not about the dosh. If she gets anything it will be reparation for the fact that Balls and co acted too hastily under pressure from the media witch hunt. In the good old days witches were burned, and dead witches tell no tales. It's different now. Got it? I don't suppose so!

 

[Digit]

neither has the rest of the team nor Balls himself. Got that?

Never said otherwise, my point is you are acting as though she has been found not guilty, she hasn't!

Got it? I don't suppose so!

Dead right! Some times it takes a public outcry to get loony leftists to do what is right. Maybe the press will be able to undo some of the damage your lot have caused with the Human RA and get rid of some of our less welcome guests, such as the Zimbabwean killer whose been granted asylum. Why should he avoid payment for his crimes? like to tell me?
Doesn't being the only one in step ever cause you to question why?
Not about the dosh? One of us is an idiot and I don't think it's me!

Roy.

 

[Benchwayze]

I'm glad she is being given fairer treatment. No point in making her a scapegoat. Balls (and everybody else) was too quick to respond to press hysteria. I've never understood the scapegoat thing; serves no purpose and doesn't remedy anything.

Balls?

How appropraitely named he is!

8)

 

[RogerS]

I'm glad she is being given fairer treatment. No point in making her a scapegoat. Balls (and everybody else) was too quick to respond to press hysteria. I've never understood the scapegoat thing; serves no purpose and doesn't remedy anything.

Balls?

How appropraitely named he is!

8)

You can guess what his nickname was at school!