Sheffield Steel chisels or brut de forge

[sebinho]

Dear forum,

This is my first post here. I'm starting off in woodworking and looking to purchase some basic tools. I live in Brazil where options are limited. It's not generally worth while buying through Ebay or other foreign sites because of high taxes and a very bad exchange rate, unless of course there's no other option. I'm looking for a set of 3 or 4 chisels between 1/4" and 1". Within my budget I can afford "new old stock" in the form of blue plastic handled Marpel chisels, some red handled Footprint chisels (but only 2), black handled Mifer (Spain) and at a pinch, some wooden handled Narex chisels.

I'm inclined to buy the Marpel, however I thought I'd look into handmade chisels made in Brazil. I contacted a maker here who forges 5160 steel, which i guess must originate from springs. His chisels, which can be made to whatever design I wish and with hardwood handles (nice woods like brazilian rosewood and braz walnut), will cost around the same price as the Narex chisels. He says they have an HRC of between 58 and 60 but will have a "brut de forge" appearance rather than a factory look.

I wonder if you think this kind of handmade tool is worth it. Better to go with Sheffield steel? I'm buying a small carving knife from this fellow so I'll get an idea of the quality. Since this is my first post to the forum I see that I can't post links - but his site (all in Portuguese, but there are pictures), can probably be found by googling: "Cutelaria Artesanal Cavaledo"

All the best!

 

[Racers]

His work looks good, why not order one chisel and check it out?

Pete

 

[D_W]

I don't know what brut de forge look would be, but I think what is different between what most blacksmiths make now and what's a nice all around chisel is the smiths will make something more like a timberframing chisel whereas a nice chisel to work with day to day is more like a vintage chisel with a tang and forged bolster.

the hardness level is ideal (58-60) for sharpenability vs. edge retention.

I wouldn't pay anyone to make more than one, like Pete says, until you know what they're making and you know that you like it.

 

[sebinho]

whereas a nice chisel to work with day to day is more like a vintage chisel with a tang and forged bolster.

Thanks Pete and D_W. Yes, that's a good idea to order one. D_W, can you please send a link for the type you mean? I'm planning to use the chisels in lutherie, mainly. If you can suggest styles of chisels, that would be great. When I was communicating with the maker I sent him some photos of some Veritas bench chisels, not because I have any experience with them, but because I liked the look of them...

 

[sebinho]

These were the chisels that I liked (I'll need to strip some details from the URL):

www [dot] renaissancewoodworker [dot] com/review-of-veritas-o1-bench-chisels

 

[D_W]

These were the chisels that I liked (I'll need to strip some details from the URL):

www [dot] renaissancewoodworker [dot] com/review-of-veritas-o1-bench-chisels

I'm sure those are good chisels, but I'm not sure what practical benefit they provide over a chisel that costs half as much, but is also made of O1. They're likely finished a little better from the start, but the average price of a set of them would be $70 each or so in O1. (look around for mk2 ashley iles chisels to see what I'm talking about at half the cost).

 

[MIGNAL]

I'm struggling to think of one application in lutherie where one would need a fancy chisel. The sharpened end of a bar will do. Maybe a V joint requires a dovetail type chisel. V joint is pretty rare. That's it. Anything will do.

 

[D_W]

The same is true elsewhere, and any cheap chisels that's got edges too fat can easily be done down a little bit with a grinder, a coarse stone or a belt sander. A newbie may not be able to do the neatest job at it, but neat isn't required.

 

[sebinho]

so things like this will hold an edge?

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB- ... -uyust-_JM

these are very cheap.

Mignal, I would have thought that baroque avatar of yours would take some fancy chisel or knife work - no?

 

[MIGNAL]

Two ways of doing it, knife or chisel. The chisels (really gouges) are really, really tiny, incredibly thin. More like shaped scalpels than any gouge. I made my own out of old needle files, you have to, no one sells them.

 

[D_W]

so things like this will hold an edge?

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB- ... -uyust-_JM

these are very cheap.

Mignal, I would have thought that baroque avatar of yours would take some fancy chisel or knife work - no?

You never know until you buy and try one long enough to get past the initial edge. I would guess they're perfectly functional, but they may not be. If they are too soft for woodwork, they are a good set to set aside for household beater use.

I have chisels that were $2 each, or a little less than that actually, that are capable of doing decent work. They're not as nice as other chisels and need to be sharpened more often, but they are hard enough to hold an edge and do woodworking without issue. They are also perfectly fine to be handed to my wife to do renovation work - something that wouldn't be done with a nicer chisel.

 

[sebinho]

OK. I'll consider getting something cheap - I may buy from a shop rather than online and see if someone can recommend something reasonably OK for wood. I've already done some reading on sharpening. Mignal or other luthiers, can you suggest a good range of chisel sizes for small instruments like ukuleles? This is what I want to start on. I was thinking of 1/4" 1/2" 3/4 and 1". You don't use chisels for roughing out necks?

 

[Jacob]

Cheap well known ordinary chisels (Marples, Footprint etc etc) are good enough for everything - if all you want to do is woodwork. The other stuff is for tool enthusiasts and collectors. Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast of course , but if its woodwork you are into then buy wood rather than unnecessary tools.
Had a look at "Cutelaria Artesanal Cavaledo" some sort of steam punk survivalist fashion stuff, nothing to do with woodwork except incidentally.

 

[MIGNAL]

OK. I'll consider getting something cheap - I may buy from a shop rather than online and see if someone can recommend something reasonably OK for wood. I've already done some reading on sharpening. Mignal or other luthiers, can you suggest a good range of chisel sizes for small instruments like ukuleles? This is what I want to start on. I was thinking of 1/4" 1/2" 3/4 and 1". You don't use chisels for roughing out necks?

1", 1/2" . . . I'm struggling. I'm not even sure a 1/2" is necessary. You might want a very short stubby chisel for lining pockets. Don't really use them for necks.

 

[sebinho]

You're saving me lots of money Mignal with each message. I do have a book that's coming my way, by ship I think, on lutherie, but it's yet to arrive. How do you carve out necks, with a wood rasp?

 

[MIGNAL]

I don't make ukuleles so my needs maybe slightly different. I don't use a rasp, many people do. I rough it out with a drawknife (careful!). I have a little wooden spokeshave, 1" chisel for the heel + large cuchillo.

 

[sebinho]

I was talking recently on a ukulele forum with a luthier from Bradford, thought it was you for a while there as he has a similar username but I must be mistaken. I googled cuchillo, is it a chefs knife? I was thinking of getting a used Stanley 51 spokeshave but another person on the ukulele forum recommended against it saying it would be too big for soprano necks (I'm interested in these and in cavaquinhos and braguinhas). It seems though like a safer alternative to a drawknife which does look tricky to store at the very least. That steampunk from Brazil makes a mean looking drawknife, but I'll leave it there....

 

[ED65]

so things like this will hold an edge?

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB- ... -uyust-_JM

these are very cheap.

Those may be perfectly adequate but there's no way of knowing. Further to what D_W said however, if you got them and did discover after a few sharpenings that they were too soft for your liking it's not at all impossible to harden the tips.

You can heat treat chisels yourself to get them harder than they came from the factory, all the way up to above RC60 if you really wanted. This sort of work is easily within the grasp of any woodworker who can buy a suitable gas torch, and with a bit of luck you don't even need to remove the plastic handles! I created a thread on this a short while ago that you might find useful, So your chisel is too soft or too hard, now what?

If a torch and gas is hard to come by where you are a charcoal forge could be built very easily for nearly no money and will do the job, but you would definitely need to remove the handles first if using one of these There are many guides to making a forge like this online, mostly for knifemaking enthusiasts who want to get into making knives from scratch on a very tight budget.

This opens up the possibility of making some of your own tools from scratch eventually, from pieces of suspension leaf spring, old or broken files and even from old carbon steel kitchen knives or machetes.

 

[Sawyer]

I've had a set of Footprints for 30 years, which are still going strong. Not glamorous, but good everyday tools.

 

[MIGNAL]

I was talking recently on a ukulele forum with a luthier from Bradford, thought it was you for a while there as he has a similar username but I must be mistaken. I googled cuchillo, is it a chefs knife? I was thinking of getting a used Stanley 51 spokeshave but another person on the ukulele forum recommended against it saying it would be too big for soprano necks (I'm interested in these and in cavaquinhos and braguinhas). It seems though like a safer alternative to a drawknife which does look tricky to store at the very least. That steampunk from Brazil makes a mean looking drawknife, but I'll leave it there....

Yes, the internet is a small place.

I think a Stanley 51 would be too large for a Ukulele neck. I have one but I don't even use it for a guitar neck. The one I really like is the small Mujingfang, which is probably the size you want for a Ukulele neck. If you buy a rasp make sure it's one with fine teeth, half round.
I use one of these:
http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/v ... nives.html
You can't see from the picture but it also has a bevel on the other side. I use the 15 mm for heels. Even if you don't use it for necks they are useful for other things. You can get your knife maker to knock one up, they aren't difficult to make at all. He should be able to make you a lining chisel too, should you need it. Mine is one of these, 5 mm width (I think).
http://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/sculp ... l#shoulder
I mean really, it's just a small short bar of steel. Nothing fancy about it.
Somewhere in internet land is a drawknife that I've always wanted to purchase. It's basic, I don't even think it has handles, just metal arms. It's probably only a 3 inch wide blade and small front to back. Again that might be ideal for small instruments. Then again not many use a drawknife, for the wood it can be a dangerous tool. It's certainly not a necessary tool for necks. It's quick though.