Sheffield saw and plane making

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I appreciate that my views are for some controversial, so I thought it may be thought provoking to highlight some of things I see that indicate that a manufacturing process Is not well controlled.

Firstly there is never any excuse or reason irrespective of the age of the machine for having swarf or punched out teeth of a saw landing on the floor. A simply fabricated shoot can always be created to divert stuff into a receptacle. May sound trivial, but for a high quality product you need a clean, tidy and well organised production facility. Rubbish on the floor invariably means rubbish out of the door. No one likes working in a mess.

The process of making a saw is methodical, each step can be defined and timed. From this step by step chart the work required can be divided up amongst a number of work stations to achieve a equal amount of work being carried out by each operator and each operator working constantly and not having to wait for work from the previous operation. There is no investment required to do this. Each minute costs money and needs to be used wisely and effectively. The time taken to make a saw can then be calculated, this is known as the Tackt time.

The work stations could be moved as close together as possible, to eliminate the need to either store parts between processes and to reduce the amount of movement or travel they have to go through as the work is completed. Again, no real cost involved.

The operators would normally rotate during the day through each process to relieve boredom and also to allow them to use different muscles. Not only does this lead to less tiring work but also makes them more efficient and effective.

Layout tools for the saw blanks world lead to less metal being wasted when the saw blanks are being cut out. The steel coil is not optimised to the blank size again creating excessive waste.

The drill for the handle just needs a multiplying head adding so that it can drill all of the saw bolt homes at once with the correct spacing every time. A simply jig added to the drill table would ensure the correct location. An air or electric screw driver with torque control would speed up adding the nuts to the saw bolts.

Give the place a lick of white paint, clean the Windows to let in more natural light (don't need as many lights), define locations for where parts are stored, place them if possible within reach of the operator.

This type of re-lay out and organisation sounds simple and is, best of all it costs almost nothing. However from the video of the place it would not be hard to reduce the labour time taken to make a saw by half. This would not involve replacing any of the ancient machines or reduce the skill of the workers. But, at a guess the cost of the saw is probably 15% material and 85% labour (all of the machines will have been fully depreciated), so for the same retail price they can either increase their profits, or alternatively reduce their prices and sell more.

To automate the processes......would be highly beneficial if they want to survive.
 
You might think their environment needs to be cleaner, but I've never seen any marks on any of their saws. As far as every second counting, and coil sizes, etc, you, me and everyone else have no idea why they use those coils - it could be because that coil size is standard and less expensive than one perfect size. The mill isn't going to custom size a roll for free.

What I personally think they should focus more on is ways to add value to the saws aesthetically. they could ask 30 quid more for a saw shaped like a disston #7 than a saw shaped like a D8. The pattern is more desirable, and the plate is only a little bit larger.

It looks to me like they drill handle holes for several dozen saws. A fixed multi headed drill might be an option for the common saws, but I can't see that much being there in savings.

More value in the saws is where their future is, not cutting costs in making them.

I'd love to try one of their saws sometime, but as many of us, I've already got a full till and really don't have a reason too buy. I'm curious about things like temper, tension, taper, etc...the things that are going to matter to a user more than $5 or $10 of production costs saved.

As a maker of things sometimes, I would rather work in a setting like they have than a sterilized white environment. The cans, etc, they could do (i.e, some of your ideas and ideals could be applied without changing the spirit of the whole thing), but nothing, not even cleaning a wall so it can be painted, is free.
 
FWIW, i think deema and D_W make good points - from different directions i.e. supply (cut costs/improve efficiency) and improve demand by aesthetics/marketing. Too many UK manufacturers have lost out to low wage areas - costs are very important. Personally, i think they also lack in the marketing/customer service areas.

If you compare the marketing (videos, 'planted' stories in the woodworking press/forums) of LN versus Flinn/Clifton then LN are streets ahead and they're only 3 decades old versus over 200 years for Flinn. It's about creating that 'desirability' factor - maybe bespoke handles or whatever. This video goes part way to addressing that.

A few months ago when I had a project on I decided to pull the trigger on the 18" Pax saw (for Tenons on a 4"+ door stile) and a 14" X cut saw. Ordered via a forum member who runs a retail outfit. After about 9-10 days (after initial indicated delivery date) I enquired where they were. A call to the factory revealed that a machine had broken but no indication of when my saws might be made. Not even an apology. As a result I cancelled my order and bought an LN X-Cut saw and managed without the large tenon saw.

Chats with that retailer and another (from whom I bought the LN saw) revealed that they too experienced disappointing customer service from Flinn (i.e. Katie Ellis, who seems to be in charge).

I do try to support British manufacturing but some need to adapt their thinking, imho.
 
blackrodd":1eo2zmze said:
In the sawshop where I worked in during my apprenticeship, the handsaws and tenon saws were usually from the diyers, Farmers etc, and consquently, after they had had a several goes at sharpen and set, tended to be really bad,
"cow and calves" was the first problem, big tooth, and then small tooth,all down the saw blade length.
A lot of people get this problem.
They should have been "topped" with a flat file, in a wooden holder,until every tooth was "topped.
Then filed until the flat was gone, keeping you're eye on the shape and tooth size. and then set.
The carpenters would "touch up"his saw when the tooth started to shine, couple of times a week, and was usually
expected to "top" sharpen and set his saw in around 1/2 hour, maybe once a week, or so.
They all had a saw "horse", usually 3x2 frame sides and a vee cut out the top each side to allow 2 pieces of 3x1, tapered
edgeways so as to wedge firmly down between the vee's with the handsaw nicely sandwiched between, low down for topping and filing and raised for the set.
Here's a link to a typical sharpening saw horse, as used here in Sunny Devon, Which happens to lead to an excellent Paul Sellers vid on Sharpening, which, after a quick skim through, is very similar to how I was taught!
Following this sharpening vid will help you keep up with Graham Hayden when he speeds up in his excellent vids!
Regards Rodders

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hand+ ... laZwhXM%3A

Quite right I could sharpen a saw in half an hour when I was 21 and had good eyes in good light. Now I am just happy if I can do a good job in any time. Anyone other than they guy in the video who thinks it can be done in minutes is having a laugh and should give it a try (but not on my saw). I have a saw clamp rather than a saw horse same principle but the jaw was tightened with a bolt rather than wedging
 
I think there are different cultural values at work between the US and UK - in the latter there is more embarrassment about being pushy in the sale, whether upfront or online. Whether this extends to condition of premises I don't know. What I do feel is that in historic working factory premises in the UK - e.g. in Sheffield and in Stoke on Trent for the pottery - whenever I have had a peek in or had a tour, there seems to be a strong sense of heritage that the employees have in their buildings and in the often old equipment. Like others have said, I dare say the anaesthetised white of the ideal modern unit might not do much in this regard to inspire the guys working there.

Interesting comments on changing tasks. I was struck too how in Stoke pottery factories they traditionally don't rotate jobs, that instead they place real value on one person achieving absolute mastery at what they do. If that follows in the likes of Thomas Flinns then maybe there is a sort of human machinery going on that rotating jobs might not allow.
 
deema":364ft4eo said:
I appreciate that my views are for some controversial, so I thought it may be thought provoking to highlight some of things I see that indicate that a manufacturing process Is not well controlled.

Firstly there is never any excuse or reason irrespective of the age of the machine for having swarf or punched out teeth of a saw landing on the floor. A simply fabricated shoot can always be created to divert stuff into a receptacle. May sound trivial, but for a high quality product you need a clean, tidy and well organised production facility. Rubbish on the floor invariably means rubbish out of the door. No one likes working in a mess.

The process of making a saw is methodical, each step can be defined and timed. From this step by step chart the work required can be divided up amongst a number of work stations to achieve a equal amount of work being carried out by each operator and each operator working constantly and not having to wait for work from the previous operation. There is no investment required to do this. Each minute costs money and needs to be used wisely and effectively. The time taken to make a saw can then be calculated, this is known as the Tackt time.

The work stations could be moved as close together as possible, to eliminate the need to either store parts between processes and to reduce the amount of movement or travel they have to go through as the work is completed. Again, no real cost involved.

The operators would normally rotate during the day through each process to relieve boredom and also to allow them to use different muscles. Not only does this lead to less tiring work but also makes them more efficient and effective.

Layout tools for the saw blanks world lead to less metal being wasted when the saw blanks are being cut out. The steel coil is not optimised to the blank size again creating excessive waste.

The drill for the handle just needs a multiplying head adding so that it can drill all of the saw bolt homes at once with the correct spacing every time. A simply jig added to the drill table would ensure the correct location. An air or electric screw driver with torque control would speed up adding the nuts to the saw bolts.

Give the place a lick of white paint, clean the Windows to let in more natural light (don't need as many lights), define locations for where parts are stored, place them if possible within reach of the operator.

This type of re-lay out and organisation sounds simple and is, best of all it costs almost nothing. However from the video of the place it would not be hard to reduce the labour time taken to make a saw by half. This would not involve replacing any of the ancient machines or reduce the skill of the workers. But, at a guess the cost of the saw is probably 15% material and 85% labour (all of the machines will have been fully depreciated), so for the same retail price they can either increase their profits, or alternatively reduce their prices and sell more.

To automate the processes......would be highly beneficial if they want to survive.

The above makes So much better sense, this time!
Regards Rodders
 
I came accross this video when I bought an airgun last year. This is another smallish UK company that seems to have a good blend of hand-made and automated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPOFeHwraVU, the product is superb. On the other hand, one of the reasons I really enjoy my Thomas Flinn tools is because they are hand made and in a sense, automation would ruin this. Its a hard balance to get right but I guess the point being made is that improvements can be made to any line by keeping the place tidy, with very little investment in equipment.

I still think its a great little video displaying great craftsmanship.
Cheers
Richard
 
Mike.S":34v80tuf said:
FWIW, i think deema and D_W make good points - from different directions i.e. supply (cut costs/improve efficiency) and improve demand by aesthetics/marketing. Too many UK manufacturers have lost out to low wage areas - costs are very important. Personally, i think they also lack in the marketing/customer service areas.

If you compare the marketing (videos, 'planted' stories in the woodworking press/forums) of LN versus Flinn/Clifton then LN are streets ahead and they're only 3 decades old versus over 200 years for Flinn. It's about creating that 'desirability' factor - maybe bespoke handles or whatever. This video goes part way to addressing that.

I agree with this. I made the same point a few weeks back about how British toolmakers do not make their presence felt. I became quickly aware of L-N and Veritas - they are unavoidable - but I have a feeling that I know about Clifton, Thomas Flinn etc. more as a result of my own efforts (I found it hard to accept that there appeared to be no high quality British toolmakers any more).

As for Deema's points: I think he's essentially right. However, they might meet resistance as I suspect some folk would confuse them with the kinds of ideas which did for the quality of so many manufacturers in the past, causing them to lose their reputations or close down (sometimes known as management by accountants). He's not suggesting that but it needs to be made clear that his ideas are a source of benefit rather than a threat. Take for instance the matter of the metal waste hitting the floor. I thought straight away: "Why don't they get a simple waste paper bin and a big plastic funnel, like you see dogs wearing around their necks to stop them scratching areas under medical treatment". This simple improvement would firstly be good from the practical point of view of the worker, it being easier to empty a small bin rather than have to sweep up loads of bits of metal. Secondly, it would look better, something which is obviously not directly important in itself but it creates a better impression on visitors (important if you're trying to sell things to them) and it would probably have a slight psychological benefit for the workforce who would then work in an environment which was that much cleaner.

Maybe Deema could offer to do a one off consultancy job for them in exhange for a set of saws of his choice. :-D
 
PAC1":1c0l1zuj said:
blackrodd":1c0l1zuj said:
In the sawshop where I worked in during my apprenticeship, the handsaws and tenon saws were usually from the diyers, Farmers etc, and consquently, after they had had a several goes at sharpen and set, tended to be really bad,
"cow and calves" was the first problem, big tooth, and then small tooth,all down the saw blade length.
A lot of people get this problem.
They should have been "topped" with a flat file, in a wooden holder,until every tooth was "topped.
Then filed until the flat was gone, keeping you're eye on the shape and tooth size. and then set.
The carpenters would "touch up"his saw when the tooth started to shine, couple of times a week, and was usually
expected to "top" sharpen and set his saw in around 1/2 hour, maybe once a week, or so.
They all had a saw "horse", usually 3x2 frame sides and a vee cut out the top each side to allow 2 pieces of 3x1, tapered
edgeways so as to wedge firmly down between the vee's with the handsaw nicely sandwiched between, low down for topping and filing and raised for the set.
Here's a link to a typical sharpening saw horse, as used here in Sunny Devon, Which happens to lead to an excellent Paul Sellers vid on Sharpening, which, after a quick skim through, is very similar to how I was taught!
Following this sharpening vid will help you keep up with Graham Hayden when he speeds up in his excellent vids!
Regards Rodders

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hand+ ... laZwhXM%3A

Quite right I could sharpen a saw in half an hour when I was 21 and had good eyes in good light. Now I am just happy if I can do a good job in any time. Anyone other than they guy in the video who thinks it can be done in minutes is having a laugh and should give it a try (but not on my saw). I have a saw clamp rather than a saw horse same principle but the jaw was tightened with a bolt rather than wedging

I can't imagine 5 times out of 6 that it takes me more than 5 minutes to go over a rip saw. Crosscut saws don't need all-the time attention but if one sharpens them paying particular attention to filing the front of the tooth behind the file instead of trying to sharpen two teeth at once, they are not hard to sharpen, either.

The idea that's told on the forums by saw restorers - that every saw needs to be jointed every time - is something maybe a saw restorer has to do. But a skilled user can sharpen teeth many times without having much in terms of uneven tooth height. At least 5. Same with setting, it only needs to be done again when there's a problem.
 
I haven't sharpened many saws, but I've sharpened scores of chainsaw chains without any kind of guide - I suspect the best practice with them is the same, don't allow them to get blunt in the first place. If you touch them up gently when they first lose their edge, you don't lose the shape of the tooth, so it can be done without any faffing around.
 
Looking at the video, the saw teeth are stamped out initially using a stamp and move system. It may be that the machine also adds set at the same time but you can't see the tooling to know. If the machine linkages are not worn the resulting spacing of the teeth will be precise. There will be no need for any jointing and the sharpening by hand will be just the final refinement of the tooths cutting edge to remove the round over caused by the shearing action of the punch.
 
I can't imagine 5 times out of 6 that it takes me more than 5 minutes to go over a rip saw. Crosscut saws don't need all-the time attention but if one sharpens them paying particular attention to filing the front of the tooth behind the file instead of trying to sharpen two teeth at once, they are not hard to sharpen, either.

The idea that's told on the forums by saw restorers - that every saw needs to be jointed every time - is something maybe a saw restorer has to do. But a skilled user can sharpen teeth many times without having much in terms of uneven tooth height. At least 5. Same with setting, it only needs to be done again when there's a problem.[/quote]

Agreed, "Touching up" the handsaw would take around 5-10 minutes, firstly clean out any resin or deposit as this will clog any file and make it useless, and then to run down the saw length, at an equal number of file strokes and pressure, on both sides. You can "touch up" the saw 2, or 3 times without flattening, sharpening and setting.


When a saw is sharp, you can't see anything because it's a point, and very sharp!
When it starts to dull through wear, or some debris or grit has been hit, a distinct "flat" or shiny surface is seen.
This is the tooth, or was with the top worn or knocked off, so obviously these teeth in question are lower than the rest, and the "set" is lost.
The saw does most of its work within the first and last 6"-9", so the worn and lower teeth are in the middle
This is why they "topped" and flattened off each time, and also to rectify any irregular teeth from the
previous 2, or 3 "touch ups".

By filing, "paying particular attention filing the front of the tooth behind the file instead of trying to sharpen two teeth at once" as you have described above, is just the way to create "cows and calves" by altering the size and shape of the tooth, use the correct size file and maintain tooth size, depth and shape.
As for setting, "Only needs to be again when there's a problem" I don't think it would be very professional for a carpenter to wait until his saw won't work "Cos there's a problem" and then sharpen and set his saw.

Like a lot of wood workers it would seem that you have some shortcuts that you're happy with and work for you.
That's just not how it was done in the saw shop where I learnt my trade.
Regards Rodders
 
deema":3fr6r95k said:
Looking at the video, the saw teeth are stamped out initially using a stamp and move system. It may be that the machine also adds set at the same time but you can't see the tooling to know. If the machine linkages are not worn the resulting spacing of the teeth will be precise. There will be no need for any jointing and the sharpening by hand will be just the final refinement of the tooths cutting edge to remove the round over caused by the shearing action of the punch.

If the press, or punch set the teeth at the same time, all the set would be on the one side, and without filing,
shaping, and set the tooth and gullet angles define the rip, or cross cut, sometimes even the so called universal that the hardpoints tend to be today.
Regards Rodders
 

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