sharpening angles

[fraser]

Hi

Upon experimenting with the tormek and waterstones last week, trying new sets of angles for most of my tools, I found that most of them I messed up and am going to have to regrind again :lol:

I wondered what angles people use for their various tools-jack planes, block planes, low angle block planes, chisels, spokeshaves etc etc so I can continue to experiment until I find what I like.

Any help would be great

 

[Jacob]

30º

 

[fraser]

For everything? Ground at 25?

 

[James C]

Chisels and plane irons I usually grind at 25 and hone to 30.

Except in the case of paring chisels it gets closer to 19 grind / 23 hone.

 

[Jacob]

For everything? Ground at 25?

Everything 30º but with the convex bevel dip as demo'd here by P Sellers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvTcReENk9g
Though I use fewer stones. On smaller stuff you need fewer stones anyway. Just one fine stone will do small chisels say 3/8" or less.
It's easy, simple and very fast. A little and often and your tools are sharper for longer and never need re-grinding.

 

[Thomas Hayman]

Whatever happens to be the angle when i buy the item, so long as it's sharp :-D

 

[condeesteso]

30º

Don't think it is that simple. Here's a few example exceptions spring to mind:
- paring chisel, lower (generally I go about 25)
- low-angle bevel-up block, the bed is 12 degrees, so 30 gives effective 42 degrees, nice for shooting end grain, but I would go higher for general use and much higher for tricky grain. The fact it is easy to do this makes b/u planes handy and many owners have 2 blades for them for this reason.
- A2 Lie N chisels - it has been discussed here before that they seem to perform better a bit steeper - approaching 35 degrees maybe.
- standard Bailey-style bench plane - I often go to about 35 - 38 degrees as the clearance under blade is 45 degrees (bed angle) and these higher blade angles do not affect the effective angle of the blade to the wood at all, but are quicker to get (less metal removed) and support the edge better.
- mortice chisel (a.k.a. pig sticker) - steeper: 35 maybe even 40 degrees.

Basically I'd say 30 is a starting guide but it depends on the tool and its application - although regardless of the tool very few tool steels will adequately support less than 25 degrees.

Do you have a specific tool in mind?

 

[bugbear]

For the VAST majority of tools, grind at 25, hone at 30 works just fine.

There are some exceptions - tools that take a beating I hone a little higher (scrub plane, chisels used with a mallet), when I want truly low force paring, I hone a little lower.

Woods and tasks vary enough that ANY angle is a compromise.

BugBear

 

[Mr T]

Hi

It was interesting that Paul Sellars said how quick his sharpening was. I thought it took rather a long time. I would aim to sharpen the tool with just a few strokes on each grade. This is because with a honing angle you only need to remove a small amount of metal to get it sharp, whereas if you have just have one angle you have to remove much more metal. Of course I have to spend time grinding occasionally but that time can be planned and is less than the time saved by shorter honing. The aim is to spend as little time as possible getting a good edge and get back to the real task of woodworking.

Chris

 

[Jacob]

Hi

It was interesting that Paul Sellars said how quick his sharpening was. I thought it took rather a long time. I would aim to sharpen the tool with just a few strokes on each grade. This is because with a honing angle you only need to remove a small amount of metal to get it sharp, whereas if you have just have one angle you have to remove much more metal. Of course I have to spend time grinding occasionally but that time can be planned and is less than the time saved by shorter honing. The aim is to spend as little time as possible getting a good edge and get back to the real task of woodworking.

Chris

Yes, but he is doing a bit of a long ramble, with speed not the objective. In reality, sharpening on the job, it'd just be a few seconds

 

[fraser]

Thanks very much for all the replies.

That should do me fine, although I am also unsure about the low angle block blanes so if anyone could help me out there that would be great.

 

[DTR]

low-angle bevel-up block, the bed is 12 degrees, so 30 gives effective 42 degrees, nice for shooting end grain

I don't understand this logic (not that I'm saying there isn't any). 42° is close enough to the 45° of a Bailey plane, so what makes one better than the other on end grain?

 

[Jacob]

... I am also unsure about the low angle block blanes so if anyone could help me out there that would be great.

I think you'll find that 30º will do fine.

I find bevel mania fascinating. It works on at least 2 levels:
Those who don't get it can feel inadequate and concerned that they might be missing something. They are wrong!
Those who speak the jargon and confidently spout bevelly stuff, give the impression that they know esoteric important things. They are wrong too!
Pseudo science, fallacy of over precision, quackery; it comes by many different names.

 

[condeesteso]

Oops!! - pseudo science,quackery...
For Frazer's benefit, DTR knows what I mean.
From your original post I took it that you were interested in exploring optimum angles for different tools and tasks. If the vast majority work just fine at 30 degrees, then what is left (my tiny minority then?) might work better at different angles. Was that the question, because the answer was yes. Sorry, but we may need more detail.

 

[bugbear]

... I am also unsure about the low angle block blanes so if anyone could help me out there that would be great.

I think you'll find that 30º will do fine.

I find bevel mania fascinating. It works on at least 2 levels:
Those who don't get it can feel inadequate and concerned that they might be missing something. They are wrong!
Those who speak the jargon and confidently spout bevelly stuff, give the impression that they know esoteric important things. They are wrong too!
Pseudo science, fallacy of over precision, quackery; it comes by many different names.

Yawn.

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

Yup - a dead thread.

 

[Jacob]

The other number is 42

 

[Jacob]

low-angle bevel-up block, the bed is 12 degrees, so 30 gives effective 42 degrees, nice for shooting end grain

I don't understand this logic (not that I'm saying there isn't any). 42° is close enough to the 45° of a Bailey plane, so what makes one better than the other on end grain?

Nothing really. It's to do with size, not grain.
I'd use a block plane for end-grain when trimming off through-tenons, because it is a convenient size for one handed use on a small area. A jack plane would do it just as well but is a bit on the big side for say a 2"x½" tenon end.
I'm not sure why a block plane is seen as more useful for end-grain - it could just be a rumour! If I wanted to plane the end-grain on say a 1"x8" board I'd use a jack without a doubt. 5 or 5½.

 

[Webby]

ok .....I have read all the posts so 25 to 30 degrees looks like the way to go .............but you have now ground the angle and honed it to razor sharp using said angles

how do you know you have ground/polished these angles spot on ...do you check them with a protractor or is it really trial and error
i.e. its not cutting well so i need to redo .......

before any one jumps in I am not de crying anything just curious to how you know

ok Dave :wink:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Perhaps it might be more appropriate to say grind at about 25 degrees, and hone at about 30 degrees - a degree or so either way on either grind or hone angle isn't too much of a problem.

To check the angle, there are many ways. You can buy some quite nice brass gauges (Richard Kell makes a good one), but mine is just a piece of cardboard about 3" x 2", with notches about 3/4" deep cut in the long sides at the different angles (mine does 20 degrees to 40 degrees by 2 1/2 degree increments, so 9 notches in all), and the relevant angle marked against the relevant notch in pencil. Took about ten minutes to make, so if it falls apart in a year or so, I'll just make another. I sharpen freehand, so it's easy to just hold blade and gauge up to the light, and offer the two together to see where I'm at.

Some people prefer to hone with a jig (by the way - the only 'right' way of sharpening is the one that works for you, irrespective of whether it works for anyone else), and to set that up, you could use something similar - a set of cardboard angle gauges to set the tool in the jig.

However, the main point is to sharpen until the tool feels sharp and does what you want it to - exact angle isn't critical.