secondhand/recycling wood

[Russ59]

Yet another question :lol:
I havn't gone into the price of different wood costs yet but just wondered if say someone was throwing out a hardwood or softwood for that matter internal door, would any of you reuse the main parts after planing or sanding for other projects? same goes for other furniture being discarded with undamaged parts.
Or is it best to use new wood?
I'm thinking saving pennies :wink: oh and the environment :lol:

Russ

 

[adidat]

unless you can see any rot, or discolouration then the timber should be fine as long as its dry. but watch our for nails and other shrapnel when working it, as this will damage your tools. some great bits of mahogany like hardwood can be got out of doors and windows.

i turned an old fence post into a rounders bat! looked great and the old nail holes that i had filled with CA glue added some character to the piece!

adidat

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Old wood is often better than new. Certainly likely to be more stable. Watch out for nails etc, as suggested above, and buy a belt sander or cheap power planer (hand held) to remove paint/varnish. Look out for wood recycling centres in some towns/cities. They remove nails etc, and your money goes to a good cause.

Nick

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Old wood is often better than new. Certainly likely to be more stable. Nick

Nick, what information do you have that points to the likelihood that recycled, possibly old wood is more stable than any other wood of the same species? I'd like to know the source of that information because it could have an impact on a manuscript on timber technology I'm working on. Is there, for instance, some sort of structural or physiological change in the composition of recycled wood as it ages compared to its structure and make up when it was originally felled, dried and put into service that you can point me to? Slainte.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Good question. Don't know the science, but I know a man who does. I'll email him.

Nick

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Richard - off tack, but may be of interest. Some years ago, just as plastic chopping boards were made law for butchers, restaurants etc., UCLA did bacterial growth tests on various surfaces including newly sawn timber, old seasoned timber, steel, plastic, glass etc. and they found that growth was limited well by new timber, but even better by old timber. They beat all other materials, but as far as I know no one found out why - and certainly not why old was better than new.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I think we ran a story about plastic v wooden chopping boards in the first issue of Good Woodworking. Oh so long ago. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[katellwood]

I'll have a copy if you can't

I think we ran a story about plastic v wooden chopping boards in the first issue of Good Woodworking. Oh so long ago. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Thanks. They're in a box somewhere. It's a really interesting angle, and we should fight harder to promote wood.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Good question. Don't know the science, but I know a man who does. I'll email him. Nick

To expand on the resaon for asking the question Nick, the following is what I say in the text I'm working on. If there's information out there that contradicts or modifies the information I've gathered through my research and the understanding of the situation I'd like to know about it. Thanks. Slainte.

"There is a long held and much cherished belief amongst some woodworkers that timber salvaged from old buildings and furniture is stable simply because it is old. The argument is that the wood has been around for decades or centuries and therefore it must have done all the conditioning and acclimatising that it’s possible to do. In reality there is unlikely to be any appreciable difference in stability between old wood and freshly dried wood in the vast majority of cases. The reason for this is that wood always remains hygroscopic, expanding and contracting, adsorbing and desorbing moisture as it tries to adjust to its environment. In certain circumstances old wood may be very slightly more stable than freshly felled and properly seasoned material because of the hysteresis effect described in Section 16.2.1, where it is stated “wood cells distorted due to drying to very low MC levels never quite return to their original shape and form when they regain moisture”. The certain circumstances referred to above could surely only possibly apply therefore if the old recycled wood came from an environment in which it had become very dry in its previous incarnation. But old or recycled wood still expands and contract as it takes on and loses water. Taking ancient oak beams from a damp and draughty old barn with no heating, and making them into furniture for a typical modern house will result in the wood losing moisture and shrinking just as would be expected."

 

[Sgian Dubh]

UCLA did bacterial growth tests on various surfaces including newly sawn timber, old seasoned timber, steel, plastic, glass etc. and they found that growth was limited well by new timber, but even better by old timber. They beat all other materials, but as far as I know no one found out why - and certainly not why old was better than new.

Thanks for that information phil, although in truth I was already aware of the anti-bacterial properties of wood used in food preparation areas. Slainte.

 

[AndyT]

If you can get old wood for nothing, use it!
If you need to buy some, there are a growing number of recycling projects around the country. This site has a list:

http://www.communitywoodrecycling.org.uk/

- I think the nearest one to you is in Derby, but you may well have something nearer.

Apart from the environmental saving, using old wood can mean that you can get species that are not easy to find offered for sale new, or sizes that nobody offers (old drawer sides for example).

Good sources also include broken furniture at auctions, and Freecycle (provided people can tell the difference between wood and chipboard.)

 

[No skills]

Re-claiming or salvaging timber can be a huge money saver, virtually everything I make ATM is from second hand timber - doesnt have to be old either, you will both be amazed and disgusted at what some folk (both individuals and companys) throw away.

Be prepared however to spend time on making it useable, this can be bloody tedious on some occasions (de-nailing/disassembly etc). I have my own limits as to how much work I'm willing to put into salvaging materials, some times its just not worth it. Metal detector and a cheap power planer are a must (and maybe a moisture meter), be aware that sooner or later you will hit a hidden nail or something and knacker the blades - however a new set of blades (or even a new planer) can often be a lot cheaper that buying in new timber.

FWIW

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Old wood is often better than new. Certainly likely to be more stable. Nick

Nick, what information do you have that points to the likelihood that recycled, possibly old wood is more stable than any other wood of the same species? I'd like to know the source of that information because it could have an impact on a manuscript on timber technology I'm working on. Is there, for instance, some sort of structural or physiological change in the composition of recycled wood as it ages compared to its structure and make up when it was originally felled, dried and put into service that you can point me to? Slainte.

I've heard from Dan Ridley-Ellis at Napier University in Edinburgh, who says that older wood will absorb less water because hemicellulose is broken down by free radicals removing the parts to which water molecules bind. He says that the equilibrium moisture content for old wood will be lower than for new wood. As a result it should be more stable. But there hasn't been much study of this, he says.

Nick

 

[adzeman]

I'd like to know the source of that information because it could have an impact on a manuscript on timber technology I'm working on.

Try the Timber Research & Development Association They usually have a stall at the Bently Wood Fair and other shows.
The difference between reclaimed timber and new is how it was seasoned (in softwoods) check the growth rings this shows if slow or fast grown. This is also true with hardwoods which by nature is slow grown and takes longer to replace. Hardwoods depends sometimes on what has been blown down or moved for contruction or even estate management. If cost is factor and you need cheap hardwoods timber yards have odd stock available in short lengths so you will need a decent table saw and planer thicknesser. The timber yard charge an arm and a leg for finishing hardwood.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I've heard from Dan Ridley-Ellis at Napier University in Edinburgh, who says that older wood will absorb less water because hemicellulose is broken down by free radicals removing the parts to which water molecules bind. He says that the equilibrium moisture content for old wood will be lower than for new wood. As a result it should be more stable. But there hasn't been much study of this, he says. Nick

Thanks for that Nick. I'm following up on that information in case it's significant and means a bit of tweaking is needed. Slainte.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

UCLA did bacterial growth tests on various surfaces including newly sawn timber, old seasoned timber, steel, plastic, glass etc. and they found that growth was limited well by new timber, but even better by old timber. They beat all other materials, but as far as I know no one found out why - and certainly not why old was better than new.

Thanks for that information phil, although in truth I was already aware of the anti-bacterial properties of wood used in food preparation areas. Slainte.

I have found the 1993 article we published in Good Woodworking. It cited research by Dr Dean Cliver of the University of Wisconsin who discovered that while bacteria on wooden chopping boards died, bacteria on plastic boards did not. The team used end-grain and long grain maple, walnut, ash, beech and other species.

Nick

 

[MIGNAL]

I think that wood becomes lighter (less dense and less stiff) over a long period of time. Something to do with the breakdown of hemicellulose.
There's probably some study out there that has been done by the Violin making fraternity on the structure of the Spruce/maple that they use and I've heard them referring to the 'empty cells' found in 300 year old Violin wood. Using wood that has been seasoning for 10, 20 years or longer is often used in musical instrument making.

 

[Mr_P]

Sorry I'm a newbie but haven't I read that brand new kiln dried wood can sometimes be too dry and should be left to acclimatise first to a more moist environment.

So another plus for the old / reclaimed stuff (depending on where it's been kept).

 

[SteveB43]

well yes for using reclaimed and second hand wood, and sourcing it from Charity wood recyclers, but one place near me in E London wanted £10 per foot for some pine...
There's supporting charity and then there's greed from the "oh if it's old, it must be valuable" . No way the yard overheads and resawing costs would warrant that price...