Second hand rip and crosscut panel saws

[morfa]

So I'm finding that my japanese rip saw is nice for doing small amounts of work but for longer cuts, I'm wanting something a bit quicker. I see several folk say that a rip saw with 3-4 TPI is what's needed for this. As I've got most of my tools off ebay, I've headed over there to get an idea of what's available.

And simply for rip saws, with about 4-5 TPI, there don't seem to be many. Those that look good, have all their teeth and the seller says their straight, are all quite expensive, £50 and upwards. I've seen that Thomas Flinn sell 4.5 TPI rip saws for about £75 depending on the exact length. Which isn't far off the price of a second hand one on ebay.

Am I just not looking hard enough on ebay? Should I buy a couple of sheddy looking saws and hope I can bring them back to life, they just all seem to be missing teeth and covered in rust. I should point out I'm happy to sharpen the saws myself (and I know that I'll have to sharpen the brand new one as well). Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a new one, knowing that it'll be a 'rip saw for life'.

On much the same note, I'd really like a cross cut panel saw and they really seem to be un-common. And again expensive. Also, what TPI for a cross cut panel saw? 10?

 

[marcros]

think outside the box. Sellers dont always know what they have. If you find an "old saw/vintage saw/etc" with chunky teeth, they are probably going to be rip cut. You have the advantage of wanting both anyway. If people know what they have got, and start advertising it as a rip saw, then they start the price higher. If they know it is a Disston etc, then they start the price higher still. If they look ok on the picture, then the chances are that they will be ok. if they are bent and have missing teeth, leave them alone.

I managed to get 2 saws- a 4 or 4.5tpi and a 5.5 or 6tpi IIRC and the two were about £3 total. One turned out to be a Disston, and the other from about 1890 (I forget the name). I was very lucky, but I am sure that there are similar success stories from others. If it says collect only, ask whether it would be possible to post- sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes people are put off offering postage because the postage will cost more than the item, but you can state that you accept it will be a tenner.

 

[AndyT]

My experience is similar to yours. I have had quite a few nice big crosscut saws come my way but my best rip saw is one that I recut the teeth on. I think the reason is that the 'stock' of decent used saws from about 50 years ago would have come from amateurs or else from jobbing builders, neither of whom had much need of a ripsaw.

 

[G S Haydon]

I would say the same. The need for large rip saws has never been too great during most of the 20th century. Most humble workshops usually have something to save reverting to muscles for ripping. Not to say that using a rip saw would not be a pleasure for some but probably not enough to warrant huge sales figures.

On the panel saw it should be quite easy to reshape the teeth to work as a cross cut. I had assumed most panel saws were cross cut.

 

[morfa]

Thanks Marcos, you've hit the nail on the head there. Searching for 'vintage saw' brings up lots of decent looking examples. Seems that most folk don't want to put 'rip saw' or 'crosscut saw' in the title of the auction. So all my 'rip hand saw' searches weren't leading me anywhere.

I think I'll buy a few and see how sharpening them up goes.

Thanks for the advice gents.

 

[marcros]

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/op ... -saw-nest/ is quite an interesting article.

I think that the average DIY-er probably doesnt know the difference, hence why they are pitting them as old/vintage/antique- just means "been in my dads garage for years". That is not being dismissive- i wouldnt know where to go locally to buy a resharpenable hand saw, i wouldnt know where to take it to get it sharpened, and whilst i myself do know the difference and purpose of rip and cross cut teeth, you can only get a few standard offerings in hard-points which is all the majority of non woodworkers will ever see.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

From experience, I'd say that buying saws off Ebay is a lottery. I've bought six that way, and three had blades that were not straight. Saws, more than most other tools, are prone to damage by poor storage and misuse at the hands of the uncaring. Unless the seller explicitly states "the blade is straight and no teeth are missing" it's best to assume that the blade isn't completely straight. You may hit lucky and get one that just needs a bit of derusting and a quick sharpen, but the odds are about evens that you won't. If you fancy having a go at full restoration including blade straightening, you can pick up some dirt cheap saws. If you want a good user saw that'll work without too much fettling, I think it would be a better option to pay the money, perhaps from one of the reputable dealers. You'll only have to pay it once for a decent saw; you may have to buy three or four 'gambles' to get one good one.

New saws will give you a straight blade, but unless you buy Lie-Nielsen or one of the bespoke makers, the handle will probably be less than comfortable. Making and fitting a decent handle isn't too hard given a good pattern to work from, but it's a lot to pay for something you have to work on to improve.

With the benefit of hindsight, I'd buy secondhand from a dealer, and look for one with a comfortable handle, made by a reputable name from before WW2. I'd be prepared to pay 'new' price for the right specimen, once I'd found it.

 

[Jacob]

Ebay is a lottery but it's a fairly safe bet with cheap saws. I've had some very classy numbers for only a fiver or so (Sorby, Ibbertson, several old S&Js, all gooduns). If they aren't too good they are still good for sharpening practice - and you can put them back on ebay anyway and might even make a profit especially if they have a name, which can be worth more than the saw.

 

[Cottonwood]

I have had some fantastic saws off ebay (BIG disston rip, S&J 10tpi, disston 7tpi crosscut plus others) and I use them all the time.
I always asked a few questions of the prospective seller, to at least try to avoid disasters EG
Is the blade badly dented, kinked, cracked?
Is there any evidence of hammering to remove dents?
Are any of the saw nuts missing?
Are any teeth missing?
Are there any cracks, splits or other damage to the wood handle (including worm)?
When you get an old saw you can tell instantly if the previous owner knew how to care for it, the teeth will be well formed and filed even if they are coated with rust/grease/paint/soot/coal etc
Dont worry if there is only one or 2 teeth off, as you re-file over time new ones will grow in
good luck finding what you want

Edit (I should point out those saws I mentioned cost 40p each, but they did need to be totally stripped down, derusted, cleaned, reassembled, reset and refiled!)

 

[bugbear]

I always asked a few questions of the prospective [saw] seller, to at least try to avoid disasters EG
Is the blade badly dented, kinked, cracked?
Is there any evidence of hammering to remove dents?
Are any of the saw nuts missing?
Are any teeth missing?
Are there any cracks, splits or other damage to the wood handle (including worm)?

Good list of questions.

BugBear

 

[morfa]

How hard is it to straighten a saw?

I think £10-20 on a couple of saws would be an ok amount for me to spend, just to see if I can get something good. If that doesn't work, I'll look at buying a new one or buying a 'good quality' used saw from a dealer.

The brand new saw that I'd been looking at was one of these:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... Range.html

Specifically the Pax Handsaw. Looks like quite a nice comfy handle there.

 

[marcros]

I always asked a few questions of the prospective [saw] seller, to at least try to avoid disasters EG
Is the blade badly dented, kinked, cracked?
Is there any evidence of hammering to remove dents?
Are any of the saw nuts missing?
Are any teeth missing?
Are there any cracks, splits or other damage to the wood handle (including worm)?

Good list of questions.

BugBear

several are not dissimilar to the list of questions for buying a landrover.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

How hard is it to straighten a saw?

I think £10-20 on a couple of saws would be an ok amount for me to spend, just to see if I can get something good. If that doesn't work, I'll look at buying a new one or buying a 'good quality' used saw from a dealer.

The brand new saw that I'd been looking at was one of these:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... Range.html

Specifically the Pax Handsaw. Looks like quite a nice comfy handle there.

I have had a go at saw blade straightening, with a sort of success - post684774.html#p684774 - but reached the conclusion that it isn't easy. It's the sort of thing that might be worth tooling up for and investing practice time in if you feel like restoring a fair battery of saws, but if you just want a few decent saws for furniture making, I'd say it isn't worth the hassle. Just buy straight saws to start with, and be done with it.

Years ago, I bought a Roberts and Lee Dorchester 26" rip saw (Flinn Garlick make them, now). It gave me some trouble, one of which was that the handle was OKish, but not really comfortable for extended use. I made and fitted a beech handle modelled on an old Drabble and Sanderson (the same as for the 22" panel saw that was the subject of the straightening thread) and it's a huge improvement. I think Flinn's have got handle shape nearer to right with their new Pax range of backsaws, but I'm not so sure about the longsaws. Old, curly handles are without doubt far better than most modern ones - much more ergonomic. The modern exceptions are the bespoke makers, but they model their handles on 18th and 19th century examples.

 

[Cottonwood]

The reason I made a point of asking ebay sellers if there was any evidence of hammer flattening, is because if you can see it (usually rough crescent moon shaped dents) it wasnt very well done, in fact when the blade has been done like that they sometimes crack at that point...Maybe its not hard to do flattening, but I have never tried so dont know...I agree-when you can, try to get a decent straight blade to start with.
I still have a number of saws that have been filed so often that the toe of the blade is pointed like a sword. I have it in mind to possibly cut them into narrow strips and make frame saws from them..
cheers Jonathan

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The reason I made a point of asking ebay sellers if there was any evidence of hammer flattening, is because if you can see it (usually rough crescent moon shaped dents) it wasnt very well done, in fact when the blade has been done like that they sometimes crack at that point...Maybe its not hard to do flattening, but I have never tried so dont know...I agree-when you can, try to get a decent straight blade to start with.
I still have a number of saws that have been filed so often that the toe of the blade is pointed like a sword. I have it in mind to possibly cut them into narrow strips and make frame saws from them..
cheers Jonathan

Yes - good point about hammer marks. If you can see them, then any hammer-straightening has been done poorly. When I did mine, I followed the written advice by rounding the edges of the hammer head and polishing the hammer faces, like a silversmith's planishing hammer. I think if you just used the workshop knock-about ball-pein hammer, complete with chips and roughness to the face, you'd see that reflected in anything you hit with it, including your saw blade.

The other problem with sawblade straightening is that you have very little leeway between deforming the metal and cracking it. The reason for this is because the metal is hardened to start with, to a spring temper. It therefore behaves like a spring - elastically - for most of it's range before failure by cracking.

Almost all metals have the strange property of behaving (at room temperature) like elastic up to a point (the yield point, technically), and like a plastic thereafter up to the point of failure. The exact ratio between elastic and plastic varies depending on the metal, and in the case of higher carbon steels, it also varies with the hardness. The harder the steel, the greater the elastic range relative to the plastic. (You can alter things a lot by heat treatment, or you can increase the plastic range hugely relative to the elastic by raising the temperature to forging heat, as a blacksmith does.) So with a high carbon steel at spring temper - such as a sawblade - the metal is elastic for most of it's range, with only a small plastic range before failure (cracking) occurs. That doesn't give you much leeway on the strength of hammerblow - not hard enough, and it behaves elastically and bounces back to the shape it was before you hit it. Too hard, and you exceed the plastic range, and crack it (and cracking is far more likely if the blow is concentrated, as when hit by the sharp edge of a hammer-head.). Finding the happy medium isn't easy, and someone a bit gung-ho with a grotty hammer can easily do more damage than good.

 

[morfa]

I didn't think that that straightening would be easy. I think it'll be a bit beyond me at the moment, but I can't see de-rusting and sharpening being too hard. Also wouldn't be against making a handle if required.

 

[bugbear]

When I did mine, I followed the written advice by rounding the edges of the hammer head and polishing the hammer faces, like a silversmith's planishing hammer. I think if you just used the workshop knock-about ball-pein hammer, complete with chips and roughness to the face, you'd see that reflected in anything you hit with it, including your saw blade.

Saw doctors have a special hammer (there's a right tool for every job...)

BugBear

 

[marcros]

ask the man of 200 hammers if there is one with the collection. Perhaps you could borrow it!

what-would-you-do-with-200-hammers-t72535.html?hilit=200%20hammers


It would be bloody typical if I had 200 hammers but not the one you want!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Marcros - indeed, but with my luck they'd all turn out to be watchmaker's hammers or some such!

Bugbear - From my researches, the 'doghead' type of hammer were used to give a heavy but 'dead' blow (against a heavy cast iron anvil) when the saw doctor wanted to dress out a sharp kink. The sort in the photograph (with crowned and nicely polished faces you note) were used to dress out a gentle bend in a blade, by working across the blade in a line of blows, inducing a controlled and very slight bend opposite to to that of the blade, using a substrate with a bit of 'give' - a tree stump would do nicely. A succession of these along the bend gradually dressed the curve out. The reason for the 45 degree angle to the face of the hammer relative to the handle is easy to appreciate once you try this - both cross pein and straight pein are a little awkward to work in this application, as you have to hold the blade you're straightening in one hand, and the hammer in the other.

Sawmill sawdoctors had a number of hammers of different weights, to enable them to work not just on handsaws (which they'd regard as very thin things) but also on circular saw blades, some of which were of frighteningly large size, and thus presumably, thickness.

I suspect that the gradual move towards the use of bandsaws for conversion and resawing work meant the atrophying of hammer straightening skills. Anybody trying such techniques nowadays would be lucky to find 'proper' equipment of the correct weights (at least at affordable 'user' prices), and would have to adapt other patterns of hammer to suit. The doghead can be replaced by a heavy ball-pein or lump hammer (with slightly crowned, dressed and polished faces), but how you'd replace the slant-pein one I've no idea. Probably use a straight-pein hammer and put up with a slightly awkward working angle, I suppose.

 

[bugbear]

Bugbear - From my researches, the 'doghead' type of hammer were used to give a heavy but 'dead' blow (against a heavy cast iron anvil) when the saw doctor wanted to dress out a sharp kink. The sort in the photograph (with crowned and nicely polished faces you note) were used to dress out a gentle bend in a blade, by working across the blade in a line of blows, inducing a controlled and very slight bend opposite to to that of the blade, using a substrate with a bit of 'give' - a tree stump would do nicely. A succession of these along the bend gradually dressed the curve out. The reason for the 45 degree angle to the face of the hammer relative to the handle is easy to appreciate once you try this - both cross pein and straight pein are a little awkward to work in this application, as you have to hold the blade you're straightening in one hand, and the hammer in the other.

Yes indeed - my illustration of the various tools involved was intended to suggest that saw flattening might be a little complex.

BugBear