Saw and Chisel advice

[OM99]

Looking to buy a decent saw for devtail, tenons, finger joints etc

would this http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-rip- ... saw-950979 be a good starter saw to cover most bases instead of just getting the dovetail version?

Also would it be better to get a rip or crosscut version of it?

Also looking for a decent set of chisels without paying through the nose, would those http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Narex-Chisels ... 3aa8d7b9ed be a good starter set.



Olivier

 

[tomasg]

That saw looks nice ,Id take the rip saw but have not priced the competition.
If you plan to make small intricate dovetails ,those chisels have lands (shoulders) that would bruise your work ,
I plan on grinding the lands down on most of my chisels , i.e ...the long bevels.. so it matches the dovetails angle
which is 7 to 1 for hardwoods (draw line down 7" then 1" across)hey presto!
That angle is what they should be ground down to in the first place .
thus making a 1mm bruise on the bottom narrow part of your tail if you don't skew ever so slightly each side to counter this.

Of all my chisels none of them are symmetrically ground ...
If it were lie-nielsen /stanley 750 /marples socket style chisels that were in exactly the same positions
you would only see 1mm of edge tapering to about 2mm towards the handle that would be a gleaming line .
in other words the opposite of a firmer chisel
Good Luck
Tomas

 

[John15]

Hi Oliver,

The price of Veritas saws dropped dramatically at the back end of last year so are a very good buy at the moment.

John

 

[undergroundhunter]

The saw seems to be a good choice, I haven't used on the veritas saws myself but they get good reviews. I would always choose rip over crosscut, in fact I don't even own a crosscut saw all mine are filed rip.
As far as chisels are concerned I think it all depends on how experienced you are with sharpening/flattening and what gear you have, from experience narex take a lot of work to get the backs ready for work, I have just upgraded from a set of the premium bevel edge chisels. The lands on these chisels are fine for dovetails (I can't comment on the ones you have linked to as I've never used them), personally I would start with less chisels but of a higher quality something like this http://goo.gl/sV0NsV if you want to buy new, if you have the time to trawl eBay and car boot sales then you can have a very good set of chisels for very little money.
You will also need to consider a means of which to sharpen the chisels, I would recommend plate glass and wet and dry paper to flatten the backs and sharpen the bevels as its cheap to get going.

Matt

 

[ED65]

Also would it be better to get a rip or crosscut version of it?

It depends on whether you need it for ripping or crosscutting. Technically you need both unless you get a backsaw with universal teeth.

What depth are you thinking is the maximum you'll need to saw?

As to chisels, you won't find anything cheaper than the Aldi chisels. I think they, or the Lidl equivalents, will be in soon. Of course there's always the seconhand route to consider, at car boot sales very nice vintage and antique chisels can cost next to nothing, only a quid or so each.

If you don't already have any sharpening gear you need something for the chisels.

 

[ED65]

As far as chisels are concerned I think it all depends on how experienced you are with sharpening/flattening and what gear you have, from experience narex take a lot of work to get the backs ready for work

This has been argued to death here as it has on every woodworking forum but the back of a chisel doesn't need to be flat. Virtually no old chisel you'll pick up has a flat back and it obviously didn't stop it being useful to its previous owner(s).

Just the very end needs to be flat to intersect with the flat bevel to form a straight cutting edge. That work might only take a couple of minutes, depending on the sharpening media. I've had it take as little as 20-30 seconds, and that was on a 50mm chisel.

 

[RogerP]

I've friend who insists on wasting hours and hours flattening and polishing the backs of all his chisels.

They do look nice though.

 

[deema]

The saw will be a good start, rip teeth are the most universal, you can Cross cut with Rip but it's extremely difficult to Rip with a cross cut saw. For dovetails M&T it will probably do everything you need.

I bought recently a set of 4 Narex premium chisels of eBay, cost circa £36 including shipping. I wanted for site work a 1" chisel, and decided at that price to see what they are like. The edges are very thin so are fine for most dovetailing, hold a good edge, and the backs were flat / slight concave which meant that within about 5 mins all were sharp and ready for action.

You may have seen the Trend offer on diamond stones mentioned. This would be a perfect purchase along with the chisels. A stone is £5 and although the it doesn't say it in the eBay description they actually have two sides, a smooth and a rough. You will just need something to give it the final hone after the diamond........however for most stuff except fine joinery where speed is of the essence the fine side of a diamond is all that I use.

 

[Jacob]

The saw will be a good start, rip teeth are the most universal, you can Cross cut with Rip but it's extremely difficult to Rip with a cross cut saw......

Really? I'd say exactly the opposite - a cross cut saw is the general purpose saw and a rip is for ripping only and not good for cross cutting. I say that having recently filed a saw from rip to cross cut so that I can use it more.
If you have just one saw it must be a cross cut. A rip filed saw is a luxury extra - useful for ripping but not essential.

Chisels - you don't need a set as such. 2 or 3 sizes, bevelled or firmer, cheapos, will do almost everything. Plus one 3/16 to 1/8" handy for DTs and you can grind better bevel on the sides - just an inch or so up - no need to grind the whole thing

As far as chisels are concerned I think it all depends on how experienced you are with sharpening/flattening and what gear you have, from experience narex take a lot of work to get the backs ready for work

I'd say exactly the opposite again! A new chisel takes just a few seconds to hone sharp. All that flattening is just a pointless and slightly bonkers fashion.
I've got one Narex - a long 1" parer. It took 10 seconds to sharpen from new. It's not as good as the old pattern or Marples etc which are thinner and lighter - useful as a parer is often a one handed tool.

 

[AJB Temple]

I agree with jacob. Personally I would go for a crosscut saw. I use Veritas (I have crosscut, rip and dovetail but I hardly ever use the rip). They cut beautifully and are cheap for the quality. Some people find them hard to start, I don't. These are a good tool investment right now. Dovetail saw has very fine teeth and gives an excellent finish.

I have a selection of outstanding Lie Veritas socket chisels (mortise and bevel)....but, ahem, what I actually use about 90% of the time is a set of old Footprint bench chisels with red plastic handles that I have had since I was a kid. Indestructible . Nice chisels are nice - but not essential. I do not bother flattening the backs at all (LN are flat anyway) unless I am going to do very fine paring across a flat surface.

 

[deema]

Jacob is probably correct, I hand sharpen my saws and add a very slight amount of fleam to my rip saws, (you probably already know that it's the fleam that changes a rip to cross cut)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

For backsaws, the ideal complement to aim for is probably three saws; a small one filed rip for dovetails and other detail work, a medium one filed cross-cut for use with a bench-hook trimming parts to length, and a larger one filed rip for tenons. Something like 10" 15tpi rip, 12" 12tpi cross-cut, and 14" 11tpi rip should cover pretty much any furniture work and quite a lot of joinery. For someone doing mainly joinery work, maybe a 14" 12tpi crosscut, and a 16" 8tpi rip - forget the dovetail saw.

If you're only going to have one saw, maybe something about 12" 12tpi filed hybrid (about 10 degrees of rake and 10 degrees of fleam) would do. It won't be ideal for anything, but it'll cope perfectly well with most jobs. If the budget stretched to a couple more saws later, it could easily be filed for cross-cutting.

For chisels, if I was starting again I'd go for about four solid firmer chisels - thick blades, heavy bolsters, handles to taste - to cover the bulk of chopping tasks. Supplement these with a few nice, fine bevelled-edged chisels such as the Ashley Iles mark 2s - say 1/8", 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1 1/4", and a 1/4" or 5/16" mortice chisel. Anything else (gouges, other sizes of mortice chisel, paring chisels etc) I would only buy if and when I needed them. Fewer chisels means less of a storage problem, and more familiarity with a few trusted tools. Buying fewer means better tools can be afforded on a budget, too.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I'd say exactly the opposite again! A new chisel takes just a few seconds to hone sharp. All that flattening is just a pointless and slightly bonkers fashion.
I've got one Narex - a long 1" parer. It took 10 seconds to sharpen from new.

I agree whole heartedly that the back does not need to the flat, and without turning this thread into another sharpening debate, most people seem to want a flat back so that was the point of my comment, the fact that I don't subscribe to that trend is not relevant.

Matt

 

[worn thumbs]

I agree with Jacob,having earned a living by working with wood since the seventies I have seen precisely no rip saws in use in any workshop.A fair few of the gurus who preach to the amateurs seem to be distorting the reality.For a beginner I would recommend a reasonably fine tenon saw as a good all rounder.Don't try to learn to sharpen it until you have had a bit of practice on something a bit bigger-say a 22" panel saw from a car boot sale.I often find them for a pound or two and the teeth near the heel hardly ever show any wear so you can get an idea of what the tooth geometry should be.Having improved such a beast you will have two serviceable saws for not too much outlay and a useful new skill.

Chisels can be a minefield,the worst chisel I own is about the oldest.It is a socket handled 1" relic and so soft I only use it to lever the lids off paint tins.I have yet to find a dud Marples regardless of handle type and would suggest keeping an eye out for them.I find the chisels that spend most time on the bench are a 3/4" and a 1/4" and an invaluable 3/4" cranked parer.None have needed endless flattenning.

 

[OM99]

thank you for all the advice, will get the veritas crosscut carcass saw and the set of the 4 premium Narex one if i need anything else i can always get other swa later in the future (most likely will)

Olivier

 

[undergroundhunter]

I agree with Jacob,having earned a living by working with wood since the seventies I have seen precisely no rip saws in use in any workshop.A fair few of the gurus who preach to the amateurs seem to be distorting the reality.

That is most probably correct, as why would you need a ripsaw in a professional shop you will have at least a table saw and probably a bandsaw that can do the job more far efficiently than a hand saw. I have neither the space or the funds for either of these machines. Everything I do I do by hand including ripping boards to width. I'm not sure if you have tried resawing 5' long by 8" deep sapele with a crosscut saw but I can assure it would take a lot longer and use a lot more energy than with a large tooth rip. Its the same with cutting tenons, while it can be done with a crosscut saw a rip is more suited to the job. So while your comment is probably a valid point regarding professional workshops, it seems to me a little narrow minded to claim that "a few gurus are distorting reality" when it comes to us amateurs.

Matt

 

[iNewbie]

Oh no not more nameless Guru's distorting things. Its a Dali Lama fo 'sure. I mean dilemma.

 

[Jelly]

Just popped you a PM, I'm in the middle of sorting out my duplicates, so I may have some I can let go of cheaply if it'll get you going.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with Jacob,having earned a living by working with wood since the seventies I have seen precisely no rip saws in use in any workshop.A fair few of the gurus who preach to the amateurs seem to be distorting the reality.

That is most probably correct, as why would you need a ripsaw in a professional shop you will have at least a table saw and probably a bandsaw that can do the job more far efficiently than a hand saw. I have neither the space or the funds for either of these machines. Everything I do I do by hand including ripping boards to width. I'm not sure if you have tried resawing 5' long by 8" deep sapele with a crosscut saw but I can assure it would take a lot longer and use a lot more energy than with a large tooth rip. Its the same with cutting tenons, while it can be done with a crosscut saw a rip is more suited to the job. So while your comment is probably a valid point regarding professional workshops, it seems to me a little narrow minded to claim that "a few gurus are distorting reality" when it comes to us amateurs.

Matt

Well yes if you are doing some serious ripping by hand you need a serious rip saw.
When I kicked off as a joiner I did everything by hand except ripping as I already had a Startrite 352.

 

[bugbear]

I agree with Jacob,having earned a living by working with wood since the seventies I have seen precisely no rip saws in use in any workshop. A fair few of the gurus who preach to the amateurs seem to be distorting the reality.

I don't suppose you saw very much ripping or resawing done with handsaws at all - any "practical" professional would use a powertool, or else fail to make a living.

But if an amateur wishes to walk "the quet side", knowledge, advice and tool choices from well before the seventies is needed, either from old texts, or "gurus".

If I wanted advice on making bread in a domestic kitchen, I wouldn't ask a professional seventies baker. He'd have been using chemical additives I don't wish to use, and power mixers I don't want to buy.

It's not just about knowledge, it's about applicable, relevant knowledge. Context is all.

BugBear