Sash window renovation

[rs6mra]

Hi,
Gaining access to my sash windows is a ball ache as when I had them done 20 years ago I had scaffolding erected which cost quite a bit. At the time I was quoted what I considered a silly price to repaint them and I did them myself. The windows were draught-proofed by a firm that did a good job and that also addressed the rattling issue.
I now need to get them done again and was wondering if taking them off internally would be a good move, considering I have never removed a sash window before. I was toying with doing a test run on one of the windows at the back of the house as the main windows are want done are at the front on the High Street.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Ollie78]

Sash windows come out to the inside. So not sure why scaffold was needed. I do full refurbs including replacement cills all from inside.
Take out the staff bead, just one side will be enough unless replacing it all anyway.
Then, swing the lower sash away, put a pin in each cord by the pulley ( this stops the rope going back in) and then undo the cords from the sash. (if they were done by Ventrolla they have a little plastic clip instead ).
Next you need to remove the parting bead, this may have been replaced with a 2 part plastic one which will come out easily or if it is still a timber one might be tricky because of the paint sticking it in, you will need to take both sides out. Do the same with the upper sash pulling it right down before pinning the cord and removing that.
It takes 10 minutes to get out.
Decorate it as you need to and then re assemble. You may need to replace some beads as they can break a bit easy sometimes.

All parts are available from Mightons or Reddiseals.

 

[rs6mra]

Thanks ever so much for confirming that

 

[rs6mra]

@Ollie78 is it a simple job after the sash windows have been removed to adapt them to swing inwards? I can’t get a window cleaner. The chap who used to do them used my ladders as his weren’t long enough no longer has rounds in the village. The new chap with the extended pole turned up 2x and that was it
I did get a quote from Ventrolla a while ago to replace with double glazed and inward swinging sashes but the quote was eye watering and the glazed unit wouldn’t have made a massive difference.

 

[rs6mra]

SWMBO reckons we should change the windows
For example one sash is 700 x 1950 mm and with single panes of glass on the top and bottom. I haven’t got the depth as I’m on the train but was wondering if it might be prudent to just change the entire sash and save messing about with the existing as 4-6-4 glazing wouldn’t give much benefit.

 

[Jacob]

@Ollie78 is it a simple job after the sash windows have been removed to adapt them to swing inwards? I can’t get a window cleaner. The chap who used to do them used my ladders as his weren’t long enough no longer has rounds in the village. The new chap with the extended pole turned up 2x and that was it
I did get a quote from Ventrolla a while ago to replace with double glazed and inward swinging sashes but the quote was eye watering and the glazed unit wouldn’t have made a massive difference.

Trad sashes are easy to remove so that you can paint the box frames and the fronts of the actual sashes.
If they are working OK you can clean the outsides from inside.
Window cleaners all seem to use long poles and condensed water for cleaning. Quicker, cheaper, safer.
You can't really add DG to old sashes. Just get some thicker curtains and/or blinds
Basically you have no problems and are lucky to have some trad sashes in working order.
Re scaffolding; sash windows are really east to fit , service, replace etc from the inside. Clear the room and put down dust sheets.
I've had to turn down at least one major job, renovating/repair/replace 20 +windows on a huge Georgian building, because an ignorant architect believed it could be done from the outside.

 

[Fitzroy]

SWMBO reckons we should change the windows
For example one sash is 700 x 1950 mm and with single panes of glass on the top and bottom. I haven’t got the depth as I’m on the train but was wondering if it might be prudent to just change the entire sash and save messing about with the existing as 4-6-4 glazing wouldn’t give much benefit.

I've been messing about with the sash windows in my property for a goodly while and recently bought a thermal camera. My measrements of window surface temperature on a chilly (close to zero) night in the winter. House thermometer set at 19degC and with some rooms a little warmer than this.

Single glazed sash in the bedroom : 9.7°C
4-6-4 Heritage sash in kitchen : 12.2°C
single glazed with internal secondary glazing : 14.1°C
24mm double glazing 10 yrs old in laundry room: 17.1°C
22mm double glazing, argon filled, 2 yrs old ins son's bedroom: 18.7°C

My take away from this is heritiage units are pretty rubbish and not worth the money/hassle to install. If you already have internal secondary glazing then they are a worse thermal solution although look much better!

Fitz.

 

[Jacob]

I've been messing about with the sash windows in my property for a goodly while and recently bought a thermal camera. My measrements of window surface temperature on a chilly (close to zero) night in the winter. House thermometer set at 19degC and with some rooms a little warmer than this.

Single glazed sash in the bedroom : 9.7°C
4-6-4 Heritage sash in kitchen : 12.2°C
single glazed with internal secondary glazing : 14.1°C
24mm double glazing 10 yrs old in laundry room: 17.1°C
22mm double glazing, argon filled, 2 yrs old ins son's bedroom: 18.7°C

My take away from this is heritiage units are pretty rubbish and not worth the money/hassle to install. If you already have internal secondary glazing then they are a worse thermal solution although look much better!

Fitz.

Thick curtains and blinds are better value for insulation, apparently.

 

[Ollie78]

@Ollie78 is it a simple job after the sash windows have been removed to adapt them to swing inwards? I can’t get a window cleaner. The chap who used to do them used my ladders as his weren’t long enough no longer has rounds in the village. The new chap with the extended pole turned up 2x and that was it
I did get a quote from Ventrolla a while ago to replace with double glazed and inward swinging sashes but the quote was eye watering and the glazed unit wouldn’t have made a massive difference.

The simplex system as used in Scotland allows the lower sash to swing out for ease of cleaning etc. There is a weight limit I think so check if double glazing. There are other variations on the idea as well. Probably £20 in hardware per window.

I usually suggest double glazing if you are making new sashes anyway, at that point you might as well. You can modify existing sashes sometimes (depending on moulding size etc) this is not really worth it in my experience, I would just make new ones anyway.
There is a benefit to the Slim units a 16mm unit with krypton is a U value of 1.2 I think, but it will take time to recoup the investment, you aslo need to replace the steel weights with lead in order to maintain a sensible opening which adds more cost than you might imagine.
Draughtproofing the beads and meeting rail will have more impact for less money.

 

[rs6mra]

When the windows were last painted Dulux trade weathershield was used and it held up quite well.
Linseed seems to be the way to go from threads I have come across over the years on the forum but I was wondering if I would have to take it back to bare wood to use linseed paint or can I just rub down and then apply linseed paint.

 

[Jacob]

When the windows were last painted Dulux trade weathershield was used and it held up quite well.
Linseed seems to be the way to go from threads I have come across over the years on the forum but I was wondering if I would have to take it back to bare wood to use linseed paint or can I just rub down and then apply linseed paint.

Linseed oil paint seems to stick to everything. I've been using it for 15 years or so, on windows and also metal (some old cast/wrought iron gates). Only used one brand so far, Allback, so I don't know about others.

 

[Yorkieguy]

One of my sons lives in a 3 storey stone built house in Matlock Bath over 100 years old, with the original sash windows. When he bought the house 25 years ago, I removed each the sashes window in turn from the inside, stripped the old paint, repaired and re-puttied the sashes as needed, and repaired/replaced the cills and frames as needed. Since then, along with my son, every three or four years we've removed the sashes to repaint them. ( didn't need to remove the ground floor ones).

It's not complicated.

You need to remove the wooden beading known as 'staff bead' on the bottom and both sides of the frame. With the internal sash lowered, you need to knock a little round wooden 'peg' into the sash cord pulley at each side at the top to trap the cord, then ease the sash forward and remove the cord from the sash at either side. Sometimes it will be held in with a knot - sometimes with nails, screws or staples. The lower sash can then be lifted off.

Then you need to remove the 'parting bead' between the two sashes which guide the sashes up and down in the frame. It might be held on with long pins or nails, and paint. If you damage it, B&Q stock it. Pull the top sash down, knock wedges into the pully at the top to trap the sash cord and remove the cord at either sided of the sash and lift the sash free.

This might seem quite a palaver, but to take both sashes out only takes half an hour at most.

We choose the weather carefully, re-paint the sashes outside, and if not dry, (they usually are), we leave them overnight, to refit next morning.

Originally the 'staff beads' were nailed in place - I replaced them with No 6 c/s brass screws.

A pic of my son's house attached.

As to window cleaning, sash windows can be done from inside.

We live in a modern 2-storey detached house with 13 double glazed windows.

Until a couple of years ago I used to clean them off ladders, but my neighbour is an A&E Registrar and it used to give him apoplexy every time he saw me up a ladder, and regaled me with the latest casualty he tended to in A&E who had fallen of a ladder and will never walk again. I reluctantly decided to start acting my age (85) - not my shoe size (11), so got a window cleaner who most of the neighbours use. He uses a pole with a bowser of de-ionised water. He does a top job leaving no streaks. H charges £10.00 for all thirteen windows upstairs and down, including a patio window. I try to give him £15.00 but he won't take it - says he'll put his price up when he's good and ready.

As a footnote, Matlock Bath is 'Jacob Country'! Though few on here may know, during his working life he's probably worked on, restored, and replaced more sash windows, doors and doorways in similar houses in the Derbyshire Dales than anyone has during his working life.

Hope that's of help and interest.

David.