Sash scribing and gouging

[steve355]

Hi

My project to work out how to make windows using traditional hand tools continues.... its doing the scribing and gouging of the mouldings I am currently trying to understand.... so I have got a few 5/8 ovolo sash planes and some 5/8 sash templates coming, hopefully they will be a reasonable match. Next it’s the gouge I’m trying to work out.

a few questions if some knowledgable person has a few minutes!

Is a sash scribing gouge required? if so, they are difficult to source and may not match the profile.
Can I use a paring gouge? If so, what size do I get.
what’s the process? I.e. how do I actually do It!

Thanks
Steve

 

[John Brown]

Hi

My project to work out how to make windows using traditional hand tools continues.... its doing the scribing and gouging of the mouldings I am currently trying to understand.... so I have got a few 5/8 ovolo sash planes and some 5/8 sash templates coming, hopefully they will be a reasonable match. Next it’s the gouge I’m trying to work out.

a few questions if some knowledgable person has a few minutes!

Is a sash scribing gouge required? if so, they are difficult to source and may not match the profile.
Can I use a paring gouge? If so, what size do I get.
what’s the process? I.e. how do I actually do It!

Thanks
Steve

There is a Roy Underhill video somewhere, wherein he shows the process. You need an in-cannel gouge. I guess the size depends on the profile of your moulding.

 

[Adam W.]

I just use a pencil to mark the curve with the template and cut them with a coping saw. But the scribing gouge is just an incannel gouge used to score the glazing bar with to make a clean cut.

I found it was the easiest way.

If you try to cut all the way through, you run the risk of destroying the fillet in the centre of the glazing bar. That should be kept tight and tidy, as it's the part the eye is drawn to when looking at the window.

Like I said on the other thread, the planes are matched with the templates and one manufacturers planes may not match any old template, but you may be lucky.

This video will give you a good idea of the process

https://player.vimeo.com/video/349061095

https://zlotofftoolmuseum.org/trade-crafts-videos/

 

[John Brown]

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/product/roy-underhill-dwnld-210/Might help, if you haven't already watched it.

 

[Cabinetman]

I just use a pencil to mark the curve with the template and cut them with a coping saw. But the scribing gouge is just an incannel gouge used to score the glazing bar with to make a clean cut.

I found it was the easiest way.

If you try to cut all the way through, you run the risk of destroying the fillet in the centre of the glazing bar. That should be kept tight and tidy, as it's the part the eye is drawn to when looking at the window.

Like I said on the other thread, the planes are matched with the templates and one manufacturers planes may not match any old template, but you may be lucky.

This video will give you a good idea of the process

https://player.vimeo.com/video/349061095

https://zlotofftoolmuseum.org/trade-crafts-videos/

Thanks Adam, all three of those short videos were wonderful to watch, my Pam found them compelling watching as well. ( A rare find, a woman who is interested in wood and methods.) I hadn’t realised that in the old days the sash window frames weren’t glued at all. Ian

 

[Adam W.]

They're nicely made videos aren't they Ian.

I think we all deserve a shed like that, don't you ? Complete with honey coloured light too.

Those wooden pins aren't drawbored either, but added at the end of the day after the wedges have been put in. I had a job working on some early vertical sliding sash windows which were dated by my friend, using the nails, to 1720.

They were beautifully made with boxwood pulleys and lead weights and the timber they were made from was superb. The pins just knocked out and knocked back in again. When the pins and wedges came out, the sash just came apart easily.

 

[6x4]

The pins just knocked out and knocked back in again. When the pins and wedges came out, the sash just came apart easily.

Interesting. Do you think there was a reason for a knock down sash, or was it simply that available glue wasn’t weatherproof so had no purpose anyway?

[edit - found the answer in the video now, yes, no purpose being there] this is a good thread thanks.

 

[Adam W.]

I reckon it's because hide glue wouldn't stand the weathering, so wasn't deemed suitable.

 

[steve355]

I just use a pencil to mark the curve with the template and cut them with a coping saw. But the scribing gouge is just an incannel gouge used to score the glazing bar with to make a clean cut.

I found it was the easiest way.

If you try to cut all the way through, you run the risk of destroying the fillet in the centre of the glazing bar. That should be kept tight and tidy, as it's the part the eye is drawn to when looking at the window.

Like I said on the other thread, the planes are matched with the templates and one manufacturers planes may not match any old template, but you may be lucky.

This video will give you a good idea of the process

https://player.vimeo.com/video/349061095

https://zlotofftoolmuseum.org/trade-crafts-videos/

That was a really useful video, thanks. Now I know I need a sash scribing plane AND a sash scribing gouge. :-(

but I’m a lot clearer on how it’s all done.

thanks
Steve

 

[Adam W.]

Don't get a sash scribing plane they are like rockinghorse poo. I have one but I don't use it, for a reason.

Just use the right template to match your plane and use it draw the shape of the ovolo, or whatever, with a pencil and then cut it with a fine toothed coping saw. It's not rocket science and that's the most easiest, foolproof way to do it.

 

[GarF]

Axminster used to do a set of three in cannel gouges. That's where I got mine having drawn a blank second hand. Since then there seems to be a steady supply of old ones in the usual places (old tools.co.uk etc) You basically need one that's a tighter radius than the curve you're trying to cut out, and creep up to the line, chances of finding a perfect match are next to nil.

+1 for St Roy!

It's a really satisfying process. Mine were only wendy house sized, I slightly wish I had an excuse to have another go. Enjoy.

 

[workshopted]

I hope you find this useful, Steve. Good luck.

 

[workshopted]

 

[workshopted]

 

[workshopted]

 

[workshopted]

Check out Richard Arnold's page on Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/arnold_richard/

 

[Adam W.]

I hope you find this useful, Steve. Good luck.

A quick note on the PDF you posted.

That sticking board he has won't work with Scottish sash planes, Mathieson etc, as they have a much deeper fence which needs to hang over the edge of the board.

 

[Trafalgar]

http://www.hackneytools.com/wp-cont...ools for Sash Window Making - web version.pdf
I think another post may have the same link...

 

[Jacob]

Scribing gouge just needs to be same or smaller radius than your smallest profile. If the profile is bigger you can nibble it out with a smaller gouge - it's not necessarily a precise single cut. In any case they get pressed into each other when clamping up and a bit of undercutting will disappear. You can just grind an in cannel gouge though the back may be softer metal than the front. Hardly matters as very little actual cutting takes place.
Can't comment on hand planing mouldings I did all mine on a spindle but with self made cutters to match, so half way there!
Pegs through not draw bored just an after-thought plus wedges belt n braces touch.
Usually a riven squarish peg hammered into a round hole.
This produces a characteristic appearance - the peg is squashed fairly round by the time it is through so it looks round on the far side, but the hole on the near side gets shaped by the squarish peg and you get an odd grain of corn shape - which took me some time to work out - due to grain being stiff in one direction but soft in the other
This also means the peg becomes slightly tapered - and over the years, especially if not painted well, with alternating shrinkage and expansion due to moisture the peg can slowly creep out with a sort of ratchet effect - it won't creep back in. They can end up sticking up from the face.
It also means they can only be knocked out one way - from the far side opposite to how they went in.
Photos somewhere I'll see if I can find them!
PS interesting stuff about the tools. I guess most work was done without any specialist tool at all and it would be bigger workshops kitting up, then as now.
I guess the sash pocket chisel was for sash pockets on the inner lining, which if not cut tightly would need a piece making up to fit the hole . You wouldn't need one for the common sash pocket in the inside channel of the pulley stile - just a drill, tenon saw, a keyhole saw and a hammer to break it out with.