Rolled Zinc Glazing Bars

[woodspiral]

Hi,

I'm restoring some antique metal windows and having a devil's own job of finding some zinc glazing bars to replace one which is missing. This is basically a T section which is about 10 x 10mm sized in cross-section. I've called a lot of companies here in the UK and no-one seems to have any. Apparently they were originally made by some kind of roller process. There is a very slight domed profile to the inside face of the T - i.e. the top of the T - which faces inwards and I think the bottom of the T is slightly squashed into a bead. Does anyone know of any company selling such things?

I just know that someone somewhere has a cache of these, it's just finding that person!

I'm beginning to think I might have to make it from a zinc sheet. If I do that, what is the standard way of joining zinc? Solder, braze, weld? Sorry, I'm more of a woodworker than a metalworker and my knowledge of metal materials is a bit lacking.

Thank you
Woodspiral

 

[Jacob]

Hi,

I'm restoring some antique metal windows and having a devil's own job of finding some zinc glazing bars to replace one which is missing. This is basically a T section which is about 10 x 10mm sized in cross-section. I've called a lot of companies here in the UK and no-one seems to have any. Apparently they were originally made by some kind of roller process. There is a very slight domed profile to the inside face of the T - i.e. the top of the T - which faces inwards and I think the bottom of the T is slightly squashed into a bead. Does anyone know of any company selling such things?

I just know that someone somewhere has a cache of these, it's just finding that person!

I'm beginning to think I might have to make it from a zinc sheet. If I do that, what is the standard way of joining zinc? Solder, braze, weld? Sorry, I'm more of a woodworker than a metalworker and my knowledge of metal materials is a bit lacking.

Thank you
Woodspiral

You could ask Brooking https://thebrooking.org.uk/
I had to replace some ornate zinc windows years ago at Matlock Bath Station. They'd been vandalised by drunks and already been copied in cast aluminium so my job was just to fit them. However I did keep the damaged zinc originals and sent the remains off to the Brooking collection. The building was designed by Paxton office and I guess the windows were original 1849.
Glazing bars rolled zinc from flat sheet as you say, and hollow. Very fancy pattern carefully cut and mitred in short lengths soldered at the joints, then glazed, with putty, painted in the normal way. I guess there'd be no chance of replicating them - it was an early patent glazing type industrial process. I've no idea how common they were/are as they'd generally be overlooked as cast iron until somebody had a poke around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matlock_Bath_railway_station
I've got some photos somewhere I'll see if I can find them.
Found this on line:

 

[woodspiral]

You could ask Brooking https://thebrooking.org.uk/
I had to replace some ornate zinc windows years ago at Matlock Bath Station. They'd been vandalised by drunks and already been copied in cast aluminium so my job was just to fit them. However I did keep the damaged zinc originals and sent the remains off to the Brooking collection. The building was designed by Paxton office and I guess the windows were original 1849.
Glazing bars rolled zinc from flat sheet as you say, and hollow. Very fancy pattern carefully cut and mitred in short lengths soldered at the joints, then glazed, with putty, painted in the normal way. I guess there'd be no chance of replicating them - it was an early patent glazing type industrial process. I've no idea how common they were/are as they'd generally be overlooked as cast iron until somebody had a poke around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matlock_Bath_railway_station
I've got some photos somewhere I'll see if I can find them.
Found this on line:

View attachment 180970

Thank you that looks like a beautiful restoration. I took a look at Brookling's website and they seem more like a museum rather than an organisation that sells items? Perhaps they might know where I can buy some though.

 

[Cabinetman]

I’m sure this isn’t what you are looking for as it’s cast bronze, but you never know and I would be remiss not showing you it. Can’t say how good they are as they wasted my time properly once!
https://www.bronzecasements.com/contact-us.html
Ian

 

[Yojevol]

Could you use aluminium T-section? 1/2 inch was the smallest I could find online, but it could cut down to 10mm.
To get the domed cap make a jig to hold the stem of the T but with clearance at the top to enable it to be bent down to give a droopy T.
Food for thought.
Brian

 

[Jacob]

Thank you that looks like a beautiful restoration. I took a look at Brookling's website and they seem more like a museum rather than an organisation that sells items? Perhaps they might know where I can buy some though.

I'm fairly certain you will not be able to buy them anywhere and nobody is making them. Or even able to make them - it must have been through a rolling/folding machine of some sort made for the job.
Could be wrong, there might be a little niche market somewhere.
Probably your best option would be to make patterns in wood and see if you can get them cast in aluminium.

 

[Jacob]

Thank you that looks like a beautiful restoration.

Thanks but I only fitted 4 of the windows.

I took a look at Brookling's website and they seem more like a museum rather than an organisation that sells items? Perhaps they might know where I can buy some though.

They might!

 

[woodspiral]

I’m sure this isn’t what you are looking for as it’s cast bronze, but you never know and I would be remiss not showing you it. Can’t say how good they are as they wasted my time properly once!
https://www.bronzecasements.com/contact-us.html
Ian

Just called them, they don't sell anything like what I need and they don't know anyone who does.

 

[woodspiral]

Could you use aluminium T-section? 1/2 inch was the smallest I could find online, but it could cut down to 10mm.
To get the domed cap make a jig to hold the stem of the T but with clearance at the top to enable it to be bent down to give a droopy T.
Food for thought.
Brian

I'm thinking along those lines too. I would prefer to buy the item and not have to make it. Time is so limited, and getting an exact match might prove difficult. It will be painted so I don't really mind what metal it is made from.

 

[Fergie 307]

Pictures would be helpful.

 

[woodspiral]

Pictures would be helpful.

Here you go. One window is similar. The other one shows the missing bar, and these bars have been painted.

 

[niall Y]

If it is just this one section of glazing bar, the easiest option would be to put a wider pane in the bottom of the window and just glue on some appropriately shaped aluminium to both sides. Much as one does with wooden glazing bar on double glazed units. There is a special tape for this, though you have to be pretty confident when placing it in the exact position.

Other than this you might be able to find a metal worker who will be able to fabricate this small section out of folded zinc sheet. You will then have a fighting chance that it can be soldered in position.

If you can remove the sash so it can be taken along to a metal workshop, then it will be a lot easier for them to judge what is needed, It would also be less hassle from their point of view and might be a deciding factor as to whether they would want to take on the job.

 

[Jacob]

Here you go. One window is similar. The other one shows the missing bar, and these bars have been painted.

Nice little windows.
I've repaired similar where the glazing bars were just thin flat iron bar edge-on the thickness of the window, with glass held by 4 lead pegs in holes drilled through the bar, then puttied in from both sides.
Can do a little sketch if that doesn't make sense.

 

[StephenArfer]

Have you tried Crittall Windows ? I'm sure you must remember the name. They have been manufacturing steel frame windows since the early 1900's. Still going in Witham, Essex where they originated after Francis Crittal bought the local ironmongers. I bought my first house in Silver End which was a village wholly built by Crittal (later Sir Francis) in 1926-30 for his workers. Housing, social club, shops, doctors surgery, primary school, a recreation gardens and two pubs. We moved into a new house in 1970, but all the original Crittall buildings in the village still had steel windows and were listed.
If anyone can help, I'd have thought Crittall can.

 

[HOJ]

I have a couple of salvaged small metal casements at the shop, sounds like they may be of a similar build, when i get back next week i can take some piccys, if they are any good to you, you're more than welcome to have them.

 

[woodspiral]

You could ask Brooking https://thebrooking.org.uk/
I had to replace some ornate zinc windows years ago at Matlock Bath Station. They'd been vandalised by drunks and already been copied in cast aluminium so my job was just to fit them. However I did keep the damaged zinc originals and sent the remains off to the Brooking collection. The building was designed by Paxton office and I guess the windows were original 1849.
Glazing bars rolled zinc from flat sheet as you say, and hollow. Very fancy pattern carefully cut and mitred in short lengths soldered at the joints, then glazed, with putty, painted in the normal way. I guess there'd be no chance of replicating them - it was an early patent glazing type industrial process. I've no idea how common they were/are as they'd generally be overlooked as cast iron until somebody had a poke around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matlock_Bath_railway_station
I've got some photos somewhere I'll see if I can find them.
Found this on line:

Charles Brooking put me onto Jon Messum and Clifford, neither of whom had any such bars and didn't know anyone. Seems impossible. I'm thinking the easiest way forward is to buy some mild steel T-bar say 20mm and cut it down to the right size and profile it with a file.

 

[Yojevol]

Charles Brooking put me onto Jon Messum and Clifford, neither of whom had any such bars and didn't know anyone. Seems impossible. I'm thinking the easiest way forward is to buy some mild steel T-bar say 20mm and cut it down to the right size and profile it with a file.

Don't forget my suggestion of 15mm aluminium which is definitely available and won't rust. The dome could be created by application of epoxy filler. Filing that down will be a lot easier than steel.
Brian

 

[woodspiral]

Don't forget my suggestion of 15mm aluminium which is definitely available and won't rust. The dome could be created by application of epoxy filler. Filing that down will be a lot easier than steel.
Brian

Thank you @Yojevol.

With some new vernier callipers which arrived recently to replace the digital ones which caused me no end of headaches, I've measured the dimensions of the material and it's around 12.5mm which is bang on 1/2" in old money. I found some 1/16" stock of aluminium 1/2" T-profile on EBay so I've ordered a length and I'll see how I get on. I think the original material was about 1/8" but I could always use some filler as you say to bulk out if necessary. There is no dome as such - it's just a very slightly rounded profile which the old boys probably did to avoid a crisp edge - or maybe the zinc just came out of the rollers like that.

I seem to have exhausted all the possibilities of finding original rolled zinc glazing bars. I'm sure there are out there somewhere, but finding it has been impossible so far.

I would have preferred steel as it takes paint better, but with a bit of etch primer aluminium should be OK.

Thank you

 

[HOJ]

I forgot to update my post, piccys of one of the two I have knocking about:



As I said if any good to you, your more than welcome to them.

 

[Jacob]

...

I seem to have exhausted all the possibilities of finding original rolled zinc glazing bars. I'm sure there are out there somewhere, but finding it has been impossible so far.

I'm sure they are not available. I think of it as a 175 year old patent glazing industrial process of limited value except in very decorative glazing.
I would have copied in wood myself, or perhaps glazed into plain iron thin bar with putty both sides - having seen this done in old cottage windows.