Robert Sorby Pro Edge System

[Rhossydd]

A cynic might say that, much like ink cartridge consumables, once you've invested in the technology, you're on the proprietary treadmill! But not being a cynic....I won't!

That PoV might make sense if they were selling the machine at a subsidised price, but they certainly aren't.

 

[woodpig]

I didn't realise Sorby were making those claims about their belts. As said I suppose it's to persuade users not to buy possibly cheaper third party ones. I've certainly never had a belt break on my machine. The only problem I've had is sourcing cheap butt joined belts. The old scarf joint ones are complete rubbish but that's what Record Power were offering for my machine the last time I looked!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

A cynic might say that, much like ink cartridge consumables, once you've invested in the technology, you're on the proprietary treadmill! But not being a cynic....I won't!

That PoV might make sense if they were selling the machine at a subsidised price, but they certainly aren't.

A point well made but I have a slightly different perspective to that coming from a Tormek background which is that by contrast the PE is actually half decent value. The Tormek on the other hand is very expensive considering how slowly it removes steel and how time consuming the jig setup can be. On the other hand its very versatile, delivers an amazing edge and has zero risk of drawing the temper....but it aint cheap.

I take the point about the printer analogy as that market has taken commoditisation to the nth degree. Buy our printer for 27p........but then spend fifty quid every time you need more proprietary ink! While you've got me ranting, HP even write all their cartridge management software to throw as many Wobblies as possible if you DARE to buy the cheaper clone brands. I find that attitude extremely cynical.

Perhaps the tool market will go the same way eventually but its a fraction the size of the printer universe and I daresay moves at a very slow pace as a consequence.

 

[Jacob]

I've never used a Tormek, but everybody I know who has one, says that they are not what they are cracked up to be. Thumbs down all round!
I have a Sorby Proedge and it's very good - and ditto, all who have one seem to agree.
I wouldn't get paranoid about the belts - they are available from many sources.

 

[woodpig]

Any decent abrasives supplier can provide non standard belts you just have to buy ten at a time.

I'd really like to make my own belts up but can't find a suitable splicing tape.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

The Tormek on the other hand is very expensive considering how slowly it removes steel and how time consuming the jig setup can be.

The Sorby system uses the Tormek gouge jig so both must be equally time consuming on setting up the jig.

 

[paulm]

The Tormek on the other hand is very expensive considering how slowly it removes steel and how time consuming the jig setup can be.

The Sorby system uses the Tormek gouge jig so both must be equally time consuming on setting up the jig.

Not really. The wheel diameter on the tormek changes with use and therefore the jig supporting bar needs to be adjusted to the correct distance from the wheel if the jigs being used are to be at the same settings consistently. On the sorby of course the bar is a fixed distance from the abrasive which doesn't change to any meaningful extent.

Cheers, Paul

 

[procell]

I use a Jet wetstone system which is similar to the Tormek. setting up takes less than a minute using a tormek setting jig.
I use tormek jigs as they perform better than the jet or record ones.

Record power have some xmas offers on at the moment that may be worth a look.
http://www.recordpower.co.uk/

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

when I said the jigs can take a while to setup, I meant "in the round" ie there are a great many different jigs rather than the elliptical grinding jig specifically (For bowl gouges). When you want to grind your roughing gouge...another jig.....skew.....same jig but different form (open seat/closed seat etc). Now I'm not complaining about Tormek's jig quality...they're excellent and as has been said, most other manufacturers incl Sorby buy them in and ship with their own product. It's just the sheer number of variables and fiddling needing to be adjusted that drives me nuts.

The Pro-edge has two massive advantages:

1) almost all its positions are baked into the machine so whilst less flexible than the Tormek which is infinitely variable, its much faster to setup and in the main, its baked settings include all the ones you're likely to want so no problem.
2) It removes large amounts of HSS VERY VERY VERY much faster than the Tormek even with the silicon blackstone, which is in fact, as slow as a dog. Sore fingers and considerable frustration if you want to regrind a large skew or do an experimental change grind on a bowl gouge. The PE is incredibly fast with a new 60g belt.

In the end, the Tormek is much more refined, but more fiddly, more time consuming, more expensive. The PE is a superb design for wood turners who want minimal faff when sharpening all the usual tools (including carbide tips with the right belt). I really get on with it and have all but abandoned the T7 except for one specific bowl gouge long grind setup which its left permanently. I've no axe to grind with the Tormek (pun intended), I've just found the PE to be way faster and more practical.

 

[CHJ]

This is why Jeff Farris who provides an excellent introduction and guide on the Tormek DVD raises the point that if you are regularly sharpening a variety of tools then the purchase of duplicate or triplicate guides and components that can be locked and left ( he even uses a PK screw to do this) is the way to go to take full advantage of rapid edge touch up, “Touch N Turn” in Tormek speak.

And despite not being quite so critical on the Sorby or used with a bench grinder due to more rapid removal of material and small change in profile if not exactly in same location, having more than one bevel edge guide certainly speeds up the touch up of the tools as setting different angles accurately for different tool formats is not an instantaneous easily set accurately function, taking longer to set and check than the actual quick lick of the tools possible with pre-set jigs.

 

[Jacob]

Everybody jigging about! It's easy to forget that it is possible to sharpen almost anything without a jig. They are not necessary. It's only a very recent fashion (and it sells a lot of accessories).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An A.I. 3/4" bowl gouge is £56. A jig will probably double its life span, so it doesn't take many tools to more than justify the jigs. It might not be necessary, but it surely makes sense.

 

[CHJ]

Everybody jigging about! It's easy to forget that it is possible to sharpen almost anything without a jig. They are not necessary. It's only a very recent fashion (and it sells a lot of accessories).

Those of us that actually use the machines and produce significant output in the limited time available and wish to get on with the turning and hone our skills on producing a good finish and some output, know that a simple jig can provide a relaxed quick clean up of the cutting edge that can be relied upon to behave exactly the same way it always has done without risk of returning to the job in hand and finding that we have spoilt the job for a moments deviation on the sharpening device.

It's not necessary to own or drive a car as you proved with your recent cycle marathon, I doubt you choose to use such a mode of transport or alternatively walk to every venue you wish to visit.
Sometimes there are far more productive ways of completing a task without having to go off on a tangent learning or training for a different set of skills.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Everybody jigging about! It's easy to forget that it is possible to sharpen almost anything without a jig. They are not necessary. It's only a very recent fashion (and it sells a lot of accessories).

So if it's not necessary, why do you own a pro edge then Jacob?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

lets not re-hash this tired old argument chaps. We really have done it to death oh so many times. It's about choice isn't it. Yes you can sharpen by eye with a simple inexpensive bench grinder and a white wheel, or you can spend thousands on the most amazing linishers/industrial grinders......whatever floats your boat and indeed whatever you're prepared to invest in....capital and learning time.

 

[woodpig]

it's not just the speed of the Sorby in sharpening tools but the very short time needed to learn how to sharpen tools on it. I suspect most wood turners want to spend their time turning wood, not learning how to sharpen tools.

 

[Dalboy]

Learn to sharpen on a bench grinder, cheaper no setting of jigs takes seconds money to spend on something useful :twisted:

 

[J-G]

Learn to sharpen on a bench grinder, cheaper no setting of jigs takes seconds money to spend on something useful :twisted:

I'll second that, though to be fair I learned to sharpen tools of all types as an apprentice toolmaker in the 50s. The principals are similar whether the tool is for wood or metal.
I even regrind 0.8mm Ø carbide drills by hand - though that is on a diamond wheel!

 

[Jacob]

Everybody jigging about! It's easy to forget that it is possible to sharpen almost anything without a jig. They are not necessary. It's only a very recent fashion (and it sells a lot of accessories).

So if it's not necessary, why do you own a pro edge then Jacob?

it doesn't involve a jig of any sort - not counting the tool rest - and you can do it without that if you want to.

My point is (sorry to be boring!) is that turners regularly freehand all sorts of complex curves, hand and eye skills with a variety of tools, so they should be able to do the same with the tools themselves - especially as it involves repetition of only a few simple shapes and would save them a lot of money and time.
They take the former for granted but seem to have been talked out of the latter - by smooth talking tool sellers amongst others!

There's money to be made from telling people that everything is really difficult unless they buy dvd/gadget X.

Just about all these things here can be done easily without a jig.
Most of them are done more easily, freehand, on simpler cheaper machines (bench grinder, belt sander)
Some of them are done really badly on a Tormek (I'm told) - a lot of false promises.

 

[Aden30mm]

The original question was "can the Pro Edge cut a 'Ellsworth' grind on the 1/2inch bowl gouge?".

Which was kindly answered by the forum. I apologise to members for starting what has been hijacked into another sharpening thread.

Why I have bought one? that's easy, because I can, if it doesn't work I sell it on.

With the answer kindly provided to me, I think the thread can be kicked into the long grass now.