Requirements to operate a WW business

[dchenard]

Probably posted at the wrong place, but this is where I hang...

Here in Canada (or the US for that matter AFAIK), there's nothing to keep anyone from starting a woodworking business, other than zoning restrictions and a few administrative details (like getting registered with the tax authority). As long as you keep it a one person operation, there's no regulation to speak of to keep anyone from hanging his/her shingle and claim they're a professional woodworker.

Further than that, anyone can call themselves "woodworker" without having any formal education in the field. No need for diplomas or whatever. I remember reading a while ago that there was a strict appreticeship system in place in Germany, and no one can start a WW business without getting the certification from the authorities. How is it in the UK and elsewhere in Europe?

Just curious here...

DC

 

[mr]

I believe, historically speaking, that in France a woodworker was restricted to the types of timbers he was able to use resulting in a grading of practitioners. The eboniste being the top end of the grading and I think the term in use for a cabinet maker today.

This could all be hearsay and balderdash though, pinch of salt required.

Cheers Mike

 

[AHoman]

I remember reading a while ago that there was a strict appreticeship system in place in Germany, and no one can start a WW business without getting the certification from the authorities.

It's not the case with "woodworking" in general, but with specific trades. For instance, one can start up a home business making little wooden trinkets to sell at craft fairs, but you can't just hang out a shingle as a "Tischler" (cabinetmaker) and hire journeymen and take on apprentices. And you certainly can't call yourself a "Meister______" unless you have the credentials. From what I have learned, however, some of the self-employment rules have loosened-up due to the European Union.

I have a number of friends who learned traditional trades in Germany and Austria, and I studied some of the traditions and superstitions of the journeymen's organizations when I was researching their representation in German literature. This was a fascinating topic to me at the time but if I went on about it for too long, I'm sure it would be as powerful as sleeping pills to most people!
-Andy, a German teacher enjoying a (late) Oktoberfest beer in rainy Vermont

 

[NKE]

I was self-employed in the Germany as a violin maker in the 90’s and had tremendous problems with the ”Handwerks Kammer” (a sort of union that takes care of hand workers).
I was trained and have a qualification as a violin maker from a internationally recognised violin making school here in the UK, subsequently I had worked as a violin restorer for just under ten years in some of the most well respected restoration workshops in Europe, I then set up as self employed in Germany but didn’t bother taking their journeyman’s exam or masters exam.
After a few years happily working away earning and paying taxes I was approached by the handwerks Kammer and threatened with being taken to court, it got so nasty that I decided this was the time to come back to the UK a bit earlier then I had originally planned.
I have two British trained violin making colleagues that where taken to court for the same reason, both cases eventually won the right to stay in Germany and I have heard that in the last ten years things have got a lot easier……but yes the tradition of regulated apprenticeships is still very strong in Germany as I found out through hard experience!
neil

 

[houtslager]

but yes the tradition of regulated apprenticeships is still very strong in Germany as I found out through hard experience!
neil

Well said Neil, I have moved to Friesland - North west Germany, and was told by a "friend" it would be good to " aanmelden bij die HWK " cost me € 400 and I got nowt in return. As 90% of my furniture restorations are in other countries, I told the HWK to f*^$ £$@ they finally allowed me to leave, after several letters. As my German is still of school boy standard , I kept returning their letters asking then to write to me in ENGLISH .LOL !

Still trying to find local customers, but it is difficult tho' I have been told by a nieghbour that I would be better off marketing at the Dutch that seem tobe buying up houses in this area. I thought that was a damn fine idea as I am fluent in Dutch.

HS in a sunny Friesland.

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure about the term 'woodworker' (surely anyone who is working with wood is a woodworker if you see what I mean), but to be called a carpenter, one would have to have studied under an apprenticeship system of some sort as this is a recognised trade (like electrician, engineer etc.)

I think pro cabinet makers have typically studied some form of 'apprenticeship' under a professional or possibly at a college running woodworking courses that seem to run for a year or 2 and lead to a recognised qualification.

 

[AHoman]

I was self-employed in the Germany as a violin maker in the 90’s and had tremendous problems with the ”Handwerks Kammer” (a sort of union that takes care of hand workers).

Hi Neil,
I have heard several stories like yours, but all going back 10 years or more. What I have heard is that the HWK has had to liberalize its policies more recently as the EU has gotten into full gear. As in many cases where regulation was disproportionately strict in one country, the looser EU standards have sometimes (but not always) prevailed. I don't know the specifics, so perhaps Pedder or another German on the forum will chime in here, but I do know that things aren't that ridiculous any more.

When I was in college (U.S.), an enterprising acquaintance set-up a "barber shop" in his apartment and starting cutting students' hair at a very low price. Several months later, he got a letter from some kind of barbers' association demanding that he cease cutting hair or else face a lawsuit. We used to read the letter and laugh ourselves silly. He continued to cut hair and was never taken to court.
-Andy

 

[tim]

Not sure about the term 'woodworker' (surely anyone who is working with wood is a woodworker if you see what I mean), but to be called a carpenter, one would have to have studied under an apprenticeship system of some sort as this is a recognised trade (like electrician, engineer etc.)

I think pro cabinet makers have typically studied some form of 'apprenticeship' under a professional or possibly at a college running woodworking courses that seem to run for a year or 2 and lead to a recognised qualification.

Neither of those points is correct.

There is no regulation regarding describing yourself as a carpenter or cabinet maker. There are a large number of self taught bods out there. Doesn't mean they are cowboys either - I'm completely self taught.

Cheers

Tim

 

[Philly]

Hey, and don't forget "Master Carpenter" Norm Abram! :wink:
Running for the hills.....
Philly

 

[Woodmagnet]

Very true Philly. :lol:

 

[AHoman]

Hey, and don't forget "Master Carpenter" Norm Abram!

Hey Philly,
At least that is probably a title given to him by his publicist, manager, or whatever. What irks me are the number of people in this country who have chosen to bestow upon themselves the title of master. Perhaps I should start to refer to myself as "doctor", or "bishop."
-Andy

 

[Anonymous]

Neither of those points is correct.

Tim

My father has been a carpenter for around 50 years and served his apprenticeship as a cabinet maker and tells me that certainly when he started out, one had to serve an apprenticeship to be called a carpenter as it is a recognised trade (I guess things can change in 50 years though).


I suspect it depends on exactly what you want to do - carpentry has its own institution, the Institute of Carpentry (IOC - http://www.central-office.co.uk/IOC/index.htm) and I would expect it might be difficult to work in the construction industry as a carpenter without a recognised qualification such as NVQ or apprenticeship.



But if one was working for oneself, I guess qualifications count for little, and it it is the work you send out, and customer satisfaction that really matters.

 

[Anonymous]

This all got me very interested and so I emailed the institute of Carpenters and asked them.

Got an email back as follows:

There is nothing to stop anyone calling themselves a carpenter. The problem he will find is that he will not have any backing in the way of qualifications to support him should people ask for proof. However there are people who are self taught and do well for themselves.

As long as he is not misrepresenting himself to the public and is honest about his experience.

 

[Philly]

Andy
I'm a huge Norm fan so meant it with the greatest of respect. Norm has admitted he has not had a "formal" education in carpentry but has had a lifetimes training to reach his level of skill. Fair enough

Tony
Does that mean I can now advertise myself as a master fool? :lol:

Philly

 

[kees]

And you certainly can't call yourself a "Meister______" unless you have the credentials. From what I have learned, however, some of the self-employment rules have loosened-up due to the European Union.

Andy, "kunsthandwerker" will do the job in Germany, I understood

in France you're lost in the bureaucracy of the postsocialist world.

Netherlands it's free. The criteria here are: there's nothing left for the taxman.......

 

[kees]

…but yes the tradition of regulated apprenticeships is still very strong in Germany as I found out through hard experience!
neil

yes, let the Germans keep dreaming; most of the DDR people unemployed,
Polish doing the building-jobs. DDR's can do unskilled jobs in Poland
I like "Europe" : it's shaking up acquired rights of the sleeping.