removing a wax finish

[sue denim]

This last week I took a timely approach to a bowl made from Sapele. This is not an exciting piece of wood but this was an exercise for me in using scrapers on the inside.

I sanded the outside until it was really smooth, going down to 800 grit. I used sanding sealer before sanding and then applying a friction polish. I was able to obtain a mirror like finish to the majority of the bowl with the exception of a small area about 5mm x 15mm on the edge of the bowl. No matter what I do the area will not take the friction polish. I cannot be applying incorrectly as the rest of the bowl is really glossy smooth. The area shows a dull patch.
I have given up trying to remedy the situation with friction polish and now seek an alternative finish.

Question 1 . How do I strip off the old wax without going through reams of grit and starting over ?...
Question 2 . Which polish should I buy that will give a real deep polish shine ?...

The bowl in question is 80mm tall and 250mm diameter with a wall thickness of about 6mm.

I know many prefer a matt finish to their work but this is me trying to prove to myself that I can do it.

Thanks in advance and when it is done I will post a picture

 

[NikNak]

I use white spirit to melt/remove old wax... (hammer)

I dont know what other use but it works for me... (homer)



Nick

 

[CHJ]

You say you applied sanding sealer before sanding,
Although this will have stiffened up any soft areas you will have negated its use a a surface sealer by sanding afterwards.

Sanding sealer should be applied after final sanding to form an impervious skin or shell over the wood, much like the glazing on porcelain.

This then forms the surface for the wax to perform on.

Your problem with a dull patch may be just that your sanding has removed all of the glazing and the polish is just soaking into the wood.

Try Methylated spirits to remove the the polish if it's a shellac based product or Cellulose thinners to clean up the surface for you.
In fact if it was a shellac based friction polish then wiping with meths may well act as a sanding sealer and provide a better seal of you dull area.

If not soak the dull spot throughly with sealer until it stops soaking in and stays wet on the surface.

 

[CHJ]

As far as finishing for a gloss. If you have any cellulose sanding sealer practise burnishing the wet sealer as you apply it, as you do with friction polish.

If you get it right you can end up with a hard reasonable gloss shell.

Main problems along the way will be that the sealer dries quicker than you can burnish or you end up with build up streaks, the answer to the latter is to keep your burnishing cloth moving rapidly from side to side to spread the sealer.

 

[sue denim]

Ok so I will try again with the wax finish on an unsanded cellulose seal.

The problem I had with the sanding sealer is it dried very quickly on the surface of the wood leaving a build up, rather than soaking in. This may be due to the fact it was 30 degrees last week. Can I thin the sealer ?

Thanks

'Sue"

 

[CHJ]

Yes you can thin the sealer 10-15 % with cellulose thinners. You may get away with even more dilution in your climate, it's a case of trial and error, main aim is to make sure you finish up with a surface shell without missed areas and build-up streaks.

I apply it with a brush with the lathe stationary, apply liberally, then reasonably quickly wipe the surplus off.

If you are wiping it on neat then do a little area at a time (lathe stationary) using a rapid circular motion with a padded cloth, that way you can control the overlap and avoid build up areas.

If you have high ambient temperatures then I suggest you use Carnauba or Micro Crystalline Wax as opposed to Bees Wax based products.
Bees wax melts at hand temperature so rapidly looses its shine when handled or subjected to high temperatures.

 

[chipmunk]

Some really good advice from Chas but another thought occurs...

If it's near to the outside of the bowl blank then there's a possibility it might be contamination that's soaked into the wood before you started turning if it won't take any type of finish?

The worst thing can be Silicone lubricants but other things can also prevent your finish soaking in or hardening on the surface.

I could be wrong but it's just a thought.
Jon

 

[shaver01]

BUT, 'Sanding Sealer' does what it says on the tin. It is not a finishing material, it was and is designed as a FILLER & SEALER for wood grain in preparation for the final coating. The proper application is too apply a coat working it into the grain, then when dry, either by burnishing or leaving for a time, you would normally cut back the coating to the wood surface. Then if needed apply a second and third coat the same way if required. Still cutting back after each coat.

When you are satisfied with the surface, you then apply the final finish, which could be friction polish, melamine, or even some of the oils. As long as it is compatible with the sealer used, ie spirit or cellulose.

Lots of folks, including my self use sealer as a quick finish, finishing off with renaissance wax or similar, but the sealer in its self tends to go quite dull after a couple of months sitting around a house, especially if handled.

It was never designed as a finishing product.

Just my 2 pennith worth!

 

[CHJ]

....., but the sealer in its self tends to go quite dull after a couple of months sitting around a house, especially if handled.

It was never designed as a finishing product.

Just my 2 pennith worth!

Who in this thread has suggested that sanding sealer is anything other than a foundation for a final protective finish?

 

[shaver01]

I don't believe I mentioned anyone who said anything about using s s as a final finish, what I was saying was that ss is not a finish of any kind. It was always used as a grain filler by the french polishers of old, generally just thinned polish containing some sort of filler powder. It was never left on the surface as a shell coat or any other coat simply because it was not robust enough, it was always sanded back to the wood. The sole intention was to fill any open grain so that the final finish would start on a perfect surface.

It is only in later years that we as hobby turners began to use it as a 'coat' leaving it to cover the surface before adding wax, oil, or some other final finish. Nothing wrong with that IMO, I was just trying to put the record straight, so to speak.

 

[sue denim]

I always believed that sanding sealer was to be sanded. I considered it a way to bind any rogue grain that wouldn't lay flat etc. I must say this is the first time I have used it 'in anger' as it were. Got a result on the bowl. Still not perfect but considerably better.
I put some 1000 grit wet & dry in bison wax and went over the patch with lathe running. Then re applied friction polish. I will post a picture when I can work out how.

Regards
'Sue'

 

[CHJ]

I always believed that sanding sealer was to be sanded. I considered it a way to bind any rogue grain that wouldn't lay flat etc. ....

That's only half the story really with modern sealers used in turning, be it shellac, cellulose or acrylic.
I often use them before and during final cuts to stiffen up or swell the fibres and whilst wet provide some cutting lubrication and as a grain filler aid with fine abrasive to form a sludge to fill very open pores.

Once you have a sanded surface with no visible blemishes with or without the turning aid above, then a sealing coat will prevent any wax, especially past wax from soaking into the wood which can lead to a blotchy appearance because of the solvents that can't or are slow to reach the surface and evaporate.

If you move on to using a buffing system to obtain a high gloss finish then a sealer 'skin' is essential on most woods to give the abrasives something to burnish, some woods can be burnished and take a wax finish without the sealer but if in doubt it's best to seal rather than risk spoiling the piece.

This Thread may be of interest

 

[sue denim]

A very informative thread, thank you.

In the thread a home made denim mop is mentioned. As I have a couple of pairs of jeans (the waist band seems to shrink ?) I was wondering is someone could give a step by step D I Y mop making guide.

Preferably fool proof !

Regards

'Sue'

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

That's only half the story really with modern sealers used in turning, be it shellac, cellulose or acrylic.

Being relatively new to turning I'm still confused about the difference between shellac, acrylic and cellulose based sanding sealers. Is it all just about drying time?

 

[shaver01]

A very informative thread, thank you.

In the thread a home made denim mop is mentioned. As I have a couple of pairs of jeans (the waist band seems to shrink ?) I was wondering is someone could give a step by step D I Y mop making guide.

Preferably fool proof !

Regards

'Sue'

Not my idea, take a piece of stud rod approx. 100mm, 2 lock nuts to fit, 2 steel washers to fit, 2 circles of 6mm MDF approx 30mm dia. and 1 pair of undersized jeans, or 2 if you want a thick mop.

Cut the jeans into circles 150mm or 200mm dia. your choice, cut a small cross in the centre of each piece. Take the rod and fit on nut screw down 25mm or more, then fit a metal washer, a MDF circle, all the jean circles, MDF washer, metal washer, and the last lock nut, tighten all up tight and you have your mop. You could dress it with a scraper to get it round initially.

Alternatively you can buy them from here, a lot easier IMO.

 

[shaver01]

That's only half the story really with modern sealers used in turning, be it shellac, cellulose or acrylic.

Being relatively new to turning I'm still confused about the difference between shellac, acrylic and cellulose based sanding sealers. Is it all just about drying time?

Generally it depends on your chosen finish. Some sealers are not compatible with some finishes, better to use cello with a cello based finish and so on. Although some do combine OK, as with all things nothing is hard and fast in the turning world.

 

[CHJ]

.....Being relatively new to turning I'm still confused about the difference between shellac, acrylic and cellulose based sanding sealers. Is it all just about drying time?

Note:- the following is just my personal appraisal of the differing products, various suppliers and in deed other Turners may differ in their findings and recommendations for use.

1. Shellac is the oldest sealer/finisher, spirit based, it can be as simple as applying by brush or cloth, can be in various shades of colour from virtually colourless to golden brown.
Dependant on dilution ratio and method of application it can be applied as multiple coats and burnished or as a friction polish. In the extreme it is the basis of French Polishing.
(often used as a glossing/preserving agent on fruit in the supermarket, apples and citrus)
Easier to use on large areas as the spirit base is slower to evaporate, can be left as a low sheen final coat.
Not very robust against wear and tear.
Used as a single layer finish it is a decent basis for various glossing waxes etc. Allow 15-20 minutes to dry.

2. Cellulose sealer, quicker drying than shellac and a harder finished surface, can be burnished on the lathe during application with practise.
Ideal as a surface sealer for burnishing with a buffing system.
Used as a single layer finish it can take a wide range of lacquers and waxes, dries rapidly, say 5 minutes max.

3. Acrylic, is water based, takes a little longer to dry due to water base, can be 20-30 minutes.
Not as hard as cellulose in its initial state but is hard wearing once fully 'cured'.
Not easy to use on large areas, may produce foaming/frothing bubbles if used with a brush.
Used as a single layer finish it needs checking for compatibility with other non water based products.

 

[CHJ]

......In the thread a home made denim mop is mentioned. As I have a couple of pairs of jeans (the waist band seems to shrink ?) I was wondering is someone could give a step by step D I Y mop making guide.
.....

Just be aware that home made and individually purchased mops have there own characteristics, many turners make and use their own selection, but How, When, Where and with What can be a very different experience and in accordance with the particular users preferences.

In all instances the structure of the fabric, its stiffness, coarseness or otherwise of weave and the grade of the abrasive used with them can vary enormously. If what you have acquired and method you use produces the finish you want then there is nothing wrong with that but the results may be difficult for someone else to replicate.


With the case of the Wood Turning Buffing Kits, regardless of supplier/system, (they are different to those intended for metal polishing) they basically use three grades of fabric which are selected for stiffness to match the grit of the abrasives and polish without producing scratches themselves which can happen if too coarse a fabric is used on some woods.

Basically you have:-
1. A Linen based fabric that is used with a Tripoli abrasive to remove sealer and dust blemishes, but ideally not cut right through to the wood.
2. A slightly softer weave, probably a linen/cotton mix, used with a finer abrasive (often referred to as white diamond) to remove remnants of the coarser abrasive and increase the gloss level.
3. A soft cotton to apply a hard wax such as Carnauba or polish off a hard paste wax such as Micro-crystalline.

If you try to use a soft cotton for the abrasives then the cotton is more likely to flex away/degrade before any real abrasion of surface takes place, conversely using too coarse a weave for final polish can leave scratch or tram-line marks on the surface.
There are no hard and fast rules, and different people have their own preferences and methods, in general when talking about Buffing Systems or giving general guidance it is likely most turners will assume a Three (Graded) Mop system is in use.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

.....Being relatively new to turning I'm still confused about the difference between shellac, acrylic and cellulose based sanding sealers. Is it all just about drying time?

Note:- the following is just my personal appraisal of the differing products, various suppliers and in deed other Turners may differ in their findings and recommendations for use.

1. Shellac is the oldest sealer/finisher, spirit based, it can be as simple as applying by brush or cloth, can be in various shades of colour from virtually colourless to golden brown.
Dependant on dilution ratio and method of application it can be applied as multiple coats and burnished or as a friction polish. In the extreme it is the basis of French Polishing.
(often used as a glossing/preserving agent on fruit in the supermarket, apples and citrus)
Easier to use on large areas as the spirit base is slower to evaporate, can be left as a low sheen final coat.
Not very robust against wear and tear.
Used as a single layer finish it is a decent basis for various glossing waxes etc. Allow 15-20 minutes to dry.

2. Cellulose sealer, quicker drying than shellac and a harder finished surface, can be burnished on the lathe during application with practise.
Ideal as a surface sealer for burnishing with a buffing system.
Used as a single layer finish it can take a wide range of lacquers and waxes, dries rapidly, say 5 minutes max.

3. Acrylic, is water based, takes a little longer to dry due to water base, can be 20-30 minutes.
Not as hard as cellulose in its initial state but is hard wearing once fully 'cured'.
Not easy to use on large areas, may produce foaming/frothing bubbles if used with a brush.
Used as a single layer finish it needs checking for compatibility with other non water based products.

Thanks Chas. I was in Axminster High Wycombe at the finishes counter when you responded with that...perfect.

 

[YewTube]

Cut the jeans into circles 150mm or 200mm dia. your choice, cut a small cross in the centre of each piece. Take the rod and fit on nut screw down 25mm or more, then fit a metal washer, a MDF circle, all the jean circles, MDF washer, metal washer, and the last lock nut, tighten all up tight and you have your mop. You could dress it with a scraper to get it round initially.

I have done this and it works a treat. I would add two points. Mark the centre of the circle before you cut it out and secondly, bleach the discs before use if you don't want a bluish tinge to your finish.

Bill