Regency fluted leg - tricks please?

[condeesteso]

I am planning a chess table and have been basing the overall design 'silhouette' on Regency, although it won't be a precise copy of the period, more influenced by.
Fluted legs, a bit like this (just a google reference):

I have a lathe and can make an index plate, I have a small router and can make some kind of guide and depth stop (I suppose), but with the taper I'm not at all sure I need the lathe as I could make a banch-top clamp and index from that. I have seriously considered a scratch-stock and may like the control of doing this by hand, as one small error with a router and we start all over #-o . So, any ideas please on the best ways to do this... and how was it done back in 1815, I wonder??

Help much appreciated.

 

[AndyT]

I believe the historical technique was based on making a rectangular box to surround the leg, and a scratch stock which is then guided and constrained by the sides and edges of the box. Not sure where I read about this (I've never attempted it, so kudos to you) but I'll see if I can find anything to scan or link to.

 

[Blister]

You can turn the legs first , then do the routing , then cut the mortises , so if you have a small error you can place it in an unseen position before cutting the mortise

 

[jimi43]

This is fascinating and I would be interested to know the answer on this one.

Not only does the circumference have to be equally divided around it so that the final flute lines up with the first one but since the leg tapers, the flute will have to taper to ensure that the bottom division is also equal around the smaller circumference at the foot.

Mmmmm....interesting! =P~

Jim

 

[marcros]

Could you make a sloping flat topped guide that fits over the lathe, to allow you to rout it out on there, using an index guide?

The idea that I have in mind I am struggling to describe, but I think it could be pretty simple.

If you produce a tapered spindle, of whatever complexity as a starting point, you should only need to secure a straight piece of something sturdy a set distance from every point on tdc of said spindle. tdc will be set at 0 degrees on the index plate. rout the flute, index to x degrees, rout, index to 2x degrees, rout ad infinitum. this straight edge will need a slot cutting in for the router guidebush to run in, and you can clamp stops to it.

Including balls etc, may require you to increase the set distance from tdc, to allow the straight edge to clear all features.

Then, as Blister says, pick the best side (all should be identical lol) and mortice accordingly.

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks all, so far. Yes Andy please (master researcher)... I am definitely interested in seeking a 200 year-old method. Yes Marcros, I get it I think. I've seen flutes done on lathe , small router, jig before, using another simple jig (shop-made) as a depth stop. I think the taper and reducing flute radius (Jim) may be a bridge too far. I never looked closely enough at them (should have) but I think the flutes have spaces between at top (larger dia) then converge down the leg.
There is a question here re convex flutes (coming out) or concave (cutting in). I'm seeing concave for this item.
And what's all this about 'the best side'... they won't have one. Now what? (but to cut the mortices last is noted indeed, thanks Blister)

 

[AndyT]

This is fascinating and I would be interested to know the answer on this one.

Not only does the circumference have to be equally divided around it so that the final flute lines up with the first one but since the leg tapers, the flute will have to taper to ensure that the bottom division is also equal around the smaller circumference at the foot.

Mmmmm....interesting! =P~

Jim

I still don't have a diagram but if you can imagine a tapered leg lying in a rectangular box; lift the narrow end up so that the surface of the turned taper is parallel to the (missing) top surface of the box. Use a scratch or plane, guided by the box, to cut a v-shaped groove (or a sort of curved V) going along the mid-line of the box. The groove is actually the same size all the way along, but once you rotate the leg to the next position and cut a second groove, the bit of wood left in between (ie the fluting) will be tapered.

The eye sees what's left (the tapered bit) not what has been removed (which is straight).

 

[marcros]

Surely the convergence is down to the fact that they are of a constant size, moving to a narrower diameter of the spindle. The flutes themselves must have an identical cross section at top and bottom, and the difference is in the gaps between them?

 

[marcros]

http://www.wwgoa.com/articles/one-great ... -a-chisel/

 

[Paul Chapman]

There's some useful stuff in The Techniques of Furniture Making by Ernest Joyce, covering the use of scratch stocks with the leg held at the appropriate angle in a box arrangement, as Andy suggests.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[AndyT]

It's in Joyce:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...PA209#v=onepage&q=tapered leg fluting&f=false

and read on a bit.

 

[condeesteso]

Excellent, thanks. Had a look at both. The box seems the common factor, and mainly for control I am favouring a scratch tool, with chisels and maybe a tighter scratch for refining the final profile. I had planned a test piece first (as Mark's link), and back to Jim's point - if I go for convex flutes (rounded out I mean), scratch cutter to match biggest profile at max leg radius, as the flutes converge at base, the form will become a little pointed at the top of each flute or the depth of flute reduces and a flat appears between each one - and that can be tuned by hand with another scratch or abrasives.
I will try and work out actual leg height and turned form, then have a go at a test piece... will report back (once the temp rises a little in the workshop, a crisp 1.2 degrees today). It is a bit complex first go I think, circumferences, width of flute, exact number to meet etc.

Thanks all

 

[mailee]

This is where you could do with a Trend Router lathe. Pity you are so far away or you could have borrowed mine. I have done those on it before. :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

I believe the historical technique was based on making a rectangular box to surround the leg, and a scratch stock which is then guided and constrained by the sides and edges of the box. Not sure where I read about this (I've never attempted it, so kudos to you) but I'll see if I can find anything to scan or link to.

Correct, except that a router with a small cove cutter is better used...make an indexing arrangement at the end of the box so that the leg is turned precisely the right number of degrees for each cut. The biggest pita is the possibility of burning the timber at the end of each pass, which is a real pain to remove - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Yes, Rob... I am now firmly onto the idea of hand-done (scratch stock etc) for reasons like that one, and I expect it may be slower but far more control I expect. Suddenly remembered terminology (not my strong point normally :shock: ) - flutes being concave hollows in form, reeds being convex raised profiles. It doesn't matter in terms of process I don't think, but for the look I have in mind, I'm back onto flutes. I'm keen to turn a test piece to approx length (so jig box can be used on the final item). If the guide carriage holding the cutter was tracked in the box using a circular good-fit guide, then as you approach the narrower section of leg, the cutter (a semi-circle) is turned progressively to reduce the flute radius... ?? Need to get out there and try this - get those layers on.

 

[jimi43]

This is difficult to imagine but, thanks to Andy's superb "visual" description a light bulb just came on! :idea:

I made a few changes to Andy's post.....

If the tapered leg section is laid in the box and rotates around semicircular slots in the small ends of the box and the THIN end of the taper is lower than the THICK end, a scratch stock to make flutes is fitted to the long sides of the box so that it is allowed to run from thick to thin end, when it cuts the thin end it cuts less deep and the deepness gets progressively greater as it moves along to the thick end of the taper.

This change in depth on a convex semicircular stock will effectively produce a tapering flute which is in proportion to the taper in the leg. This progression will result in correct indexing irrespective of the size variation in the circumference along the taper.

Have I gone mad or do I have it right?

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

Yes, Rob... I am now firmly onto the idea of hand-done (scratch stock etc) for reasons like that one, and I expect it may be slower but far more control I expect

Not really. Provided the jig is well set up and the router cutter sharp, you can bang out this sort of thing in double quick time. The problem with doing it with a scratch stock is again the ends of the cut...how are you going to achieve a smooth and equal transition? Doing the middle bit would be OK but a bit of a chore and as Jim says, if one end of the leg is higher than the other in the jig, then a tapered flute will result. The essential thing is that all the legs are turned exactly identical in order for the flutes to look the same on each one. Making the flutes with a router is a piece of cake...the accurate bit is making the jig :wink: - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

OK, we are definitely starting with a box, and indexing disc. I agree Jim, the depth reduces along the taper so the bottom centre is set a tads lower than top (thicker end). Whether router or scratch to be decided - BUT a semi-circular scratch, if rotated off axis progressively along cut (from widest where it's at 90 degrees to axis of leg) to narrow (where it may end up 65 degrees , whatever) will reduce the radius as the cut depth reduces. Basically need to make a box and have a play. I do accept it'll be a challenge that my turned legs need to be fairly identical... I know a bloke who turns things :lol: :lol:

 

[Digit]

I've only seen it done the once, and that was when I was a kid, I'm now 71 and working from memory so please don't shoot the messenger.
It was done in a box by the local furniture/coffin maker, and as not all legs were the same the box was adjustable for length.
The legs had been turned so there were 'centres' at each. The centre on the moveable end of the box was a contverted Whitworth bolt that could be moved up and down in a slot in the box end.
As Douglas points out if you lower the narrow end below the box edge to flute will also taper, but as I recall the flutes were parallel and lands in beteen were tapered.
I hate to tell you this bit, but the guy worked to pencil lines!

Roy.

 

[dickm]

Thinking aloud here, as I can't find a Regency reeded leg to check, but isn't the problem with using a router that you are effectively cutting the lands between the reeds, not the reeds themselves, so with the taper, the cross section of the reed will change? From memory (like Roy's, a bit unreliable now ), isn't the allowance for the changing circumference usually made in the lands, so they taper while the reed stays a constant cross section? Which could only be done using a scratch stock with a cutter that is the cross section of the reed?