Refinishing water damage

[AndyT]

This is our dressing table.

It sits under a flat roof in the bay window. While we were away, the roof leaked and water stood on the top surface for a day or two.

You can see here how the damage follows the edges of things that were standing on it.

We bought the dressing table about 20 years ago. The seller said it was elm, which it might be - they are certainly nice wide boards. From the sort of shop it was, and the fashions of the time, my assumption is that any finish it may have had would have been removed before sale, and a generous coat of Briwax slathered on. Since then it has had very infrequent applications of wax polish.

What's the best way to reduce the visibility of the water damage and get it looking nice again?

My first thoughts are that reviver mixture would probably do the job, though it might be a good idea to go over the top with some turps or meths first, to remove as much as possible of the remaining wax and take off areas where it has been concentrated into a boundary line.

I'd rather not scrape back to wood if I can help it.

Before I blunder into doing that, has anyone had a similar problem and cured it?

I'm pretty sure I have now fixed the leak in the roof!

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I await with interest the answers to this problem ! The hard edges look tricky to hide. I wonder if it was water that caused the mark in the first place, whether something water based might be useful in at least softening the edges.

It's not French polish is it ? I've always wanted to try that technique of pouring meths over and setting fire to it. Sounds such an unlikely way of improving the situation that I must try it one day

 

[Glynne]

Thanks for the post Andy, I have the same problem on a Monk's Bench inherited from my Mum.

In my case, Mum used to have a vase and flowers on the seat so I have a combination of water damage and fading from sunlight. You can see the difference when the top is folded down. I doubt whether there is much wax on this one!
I'm pretty sure mine is stained and then varnished so I was going to lightly (very lightly) sand the seat to see if I can get a uniform surface and then hopefully match the stain. I don't really want to have to strip the whole bench given the carving at the back.
Looking forward to the comments from those with a greater knowledge of finishing than me.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've used a cabinet scraper with some success on my bigger BBC loudspeaker cabs, but couldn't get rid of the fountain pen ink stain (yup really!). It did reduce the water marks considerably though, and without the work being obvious.
I've reluctantly decided to have a go at re-veneering them, as there's other damage that I can't scrape away.

The big advantage of a scraper is that it doesn't clog, whereas any form of abrasive will probably do so. If not the fine sawdust, then the finish you remove. I think I'd try to get any polish/finish off with solvent first, then see how bad the remaining stains are, before going at it.

If the rails round the outside are screwed on from underneath (sorry - forgotten the correct term "gallery rail?"), I'd also remove that too, so you have an unimpeded surface to work on.

Coincidentally, I've got a Charles Hayward book on polishing and finishing next to my right elbow as I type: scored it from the S/H bookseller's in St. Nick's Market last week. He says turps + linseed oil (1:1) is a good wax & polish remover. He suggests anything French polished can be re-done quite easily.

You're welcome to borrow the book if it helps - you have my number!

E.
[edit] just looked more carefully at the first pic: the carcase continues upwards and the top is inset, I think - sorry, didn't spot that earlier - awkward, unless you might be able to lift it out to work on separately.[/]

 

[AndyT]

Thanks all - I seem to have hit a common problem!

Tony, it sort of makes sense to try water since I know it was water that caused the problem, but there's good logic in following Charles Hayward and stripping the wax off with turps. Eric, I have the same book (No surprise there!) - I deduce that you have read Chapter XXIX. I also have a few others that cover antique repairs and similar work, but finishes change so much over time it's hard to know exactly what is being described sometimes. However, turps with oil makes sense. The reviver mixture I've used before is turps, linseed oil, meths, vinegar and a little ammonia, so might be the answer here. I've had great success with it on tools and small pieces, eg here.

I think I'll wait a day or two, see if anyone else has had similar fun with Briwax* and won. If nobody pipes up, I'll do some experiments in the corners and report back. I'd really like to avoid anything harsher than a little wire wool, as I don't relish the idea of taking the whole piece back to bare wood. There is certainly no scope to dismantle anything - it's nice and solidly built.

*I can't be certain it's Briwax, I just remember that every junk shop in Stokes Croft used to have great tins of the stuff, so it's very likely. (Before they all became hip organic cafes and craft beer bars, of course. ;-) )

 

[ED65]

What's the best way to reduce the visibility of the water damage and get it looking nice again?

My first thoughts are that reviver mixture would probably do the job, though it might be a good idea to go over the top with some turps or meths first, to remove as much as possible of the remaining wax and take off areas where it has been concentrated into a boundary line.

Assuming it's just wax that's on there you will be able to clean back to bare wood with a few wads of kitchen paper and some white spirit, or turps if you prefer.

If there's more on there than just wax (like a thin initial coat of shellac to partly seal the surface, as should really be done) then a mixed solvent should do the trick. If you have any of that blended thinners that Lidl sell each year that'll do it, as will a 1:1 mix of meths and turps/WS if you would prefer to use that.

Once you get the wood to where you want it would you like the surface to be a little tougher? I'd wipe on a few coats of thinned varnish myself. As much as I like the look of shellac I much prefer the peace of mind of a properly water-resistant finish on larger pieces, and it doesn't hurt that it's far easier to apply to a good standard.

 

[ED65]

Coincidentally, I've got a Charles Hayward book on polishing and finishing next to my right elbow as I type: scored it from the S/H bookseller's in St. Nick's Market last week. He says turps + linseed oil (1:1) is a good wax & polish remover. He suggests anything French polished can be re-done quite easily.

Sgian Dubh has warned a few times of the dangers of that sort of reviver mixture on furniture in case you haven't seen any of the threads.

A lot of professional finishers would be on the same page on this, they warn of the risks of applying anything oily on top of existing finishes, particularly film finishes where there might be any worn spots or voids such that the oil can get to the wood itself rather than 'revive' the surface of the finish.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

The reviver mixture I've used before is turps, linseed oil, meths, vinegar and a little ammonia, so might be the answer here. I've had great success with it on tools and small pieces, eg here.

On the face of it you'd expect that reviver mix to dissolve just about anything. You've got meths to dissolve shellac, turps to dissolve wax and probably much more, vinegar as a mild acid might help with water marks and grease, and ammonia as a base might also saponify oils. But what happens when it's all mixed together ? Reminds me of the homebrew cleaning mixes; vinegar is good for limescale and all sorts of things, bicarb is good for grease, so a mix is good for pretty much everything, no ? Well, no actually. You get sodium ethanoate, which IIRC is good for ... embalming !

I do wonder if you want to dissolve everything in one stage; I would have thought that stripping away any wax without dissolving it and carrying it into bare wood would be one step, before dealing with the underlying finish (if any). The thought of a goop of wax, linseed, meths, turps, dissolved shellac perhaps, vinegar, ammonia and ammonium ethanoate all mixed up doesn't sound great. But I am well out of my depth here, so let's hope some better advice shows up.

If anyone knows a fix for a ring mark left by a steel cola can left by a teenogre standing directly in a puddle of cola on top of an oak table, perhaps they can throw that one in too :evil:

 

[custard]

I'm going to take a couple of flyers here.

It's not impossible that Andy's dressing table dates from about 1900-1920, it was then dunk stripped in a caustic bath during the "stripped pine" era of the 70's and early 80's. If that's true then there's every chance it was finished just with wax. If you can find a patch round the back and clean it up with some white spirit I guess you'll go straight to bare wood. If so you don't have a problem, clean off the wax, let it dry, a bit of light sanding to remove the raised grain from the water and then re-wax. Incidentally, it's difficult to tell from a photo but I wouldn't be surprised if that was Sweet Chestnut.

The Monk's Bench is probably 1930's "Jacobethan", the name given to the mash up of Jacobean and Elizabethan styles with lots of machine carving that was popular in the late inter-war period. If so you've got a bigger challenge as by this date you're starting to see sprayed nitro on some of these pieces. I'd be tempted to unscrew the hinged seat, strip that and refinish. Either that or regard it as evidence of family life and just live with it!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Sgian Dubh has warned a few times of the dangers of that sort of reviver mixture on furniture in case you haven't seen any of the threads.

To complete the caution you referred to where you referenced comments from me in other threads, the primary concern is the tendency of linseed oil to darken wood. For instance, if the mixture is used to refresh a wax only finish, the various solvent like elements of the mix can soften the wax sufficiently to allow the linseed oil to come into contact with the wood, which it then darkens. Similarly, these revivers with their mix usually made up of things like genuine gum turpentine, alcohol, and linseed oil quite commonly scrubbed with the grain using something like 0000 wire wool on other finishes, such as shellac can soften the shellac enough to allow the linseed oil to penetrate the wood underneath: additional darkening of the wood may not be a desirable outcome. Slainte.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks guys. I'll have a closer look and take some more photos in daylight but I think that Custard is probably right that any original finish was stripped and there is just wax on it now, no shellac.

 

[Matt@]

removing the finish preferably with paint stripper (old type!) then applying oxalic acid would be my chosen path. These type of marks can be stubborn to remove. If oxalic doesnt work, I do find that using old style stripper (DCM) and wire wool and scrubbing quite hard with the grain will often remove more and more of the stain (but not too much aggressive scrubbing or you will end up with a slight dip in the surface!) Better to remove 70% of the stain and live with it than attack the top with a sander to remove 100% whereby the whole character of the top is ruined. If not using stripper to strip, meths is better than white spirit IMO as it will dissolve wax and any shellac based finish whereas white spirit is only applicable to wax. Also white spirit lulls you into a false sense of security making the surface look amazing until an hour later when its dried out. Meths evaporates within minutes so you know what you are dealing with...

 

[Glynne]

Thanks Custard.
This bench is actually much later (1960's) and I'm pretty sure was bought from new.
As you suggest, the plan is to take the seat lid off and work on this originally. I had thought of varnish but given the carving it probably was sprayed and I think I'm going down the sanding route rather than risking any solvents.
It will be a few weeks before I get around to working on it but I'll post pictures as I do.

 

[ED65]

I had thought of varnish but given the carving it probably was sprayed and I think I'm going down the sanding route rather than risking any solvents.

Just on this Glynne, don't be afraid of solvents if you intend to get down to bare wood. Stripping with solvents is the least risky way to remove old finish; assuming the fumes aren't a problem where you're working stripping should be the removal method of first resort on old pieces, with sanding third or even forth on the list.

 

[AndyT]

Quick update. The discussion was really useful and helped reassure me that the piece had been stripped and I was just dealing with wax. Thanks too to Custard for the identification as chestnut - now that I have looked at pictures of both woods on the Hobbithouse site I can happily confirm that I would far rather believe an expert furniture maker than a junk shop owner! :lol:

I've started to attack the wax with meths, cautiously at first, then a bit more vigorously. Using meths was definitely quicker than white spirit, like Matt@ said.

Here you can see that the wax and dirt are lifting off

I switched from cloth to 00 steel wool, which got a bit more of a slurry going and wiped it up with paper kitchen towels. These photos show the same area as a before, during and after sequence.

As I work on the wax, it goes a bit sticky, then lifts off nicely.

This is a wider view, before and after. The marks are a lot less visible, and probably faded enough to add some fresh finish after some more repetitions.

 

[AndyT]

Ok, decisions made, job nearly finished.

I decided to keep it simple and just apply some boiled linseed oil, thinned a little with turpentine. I know it will darken the wood a bit, but that's ok, it's actually a bit bleached looking in places from sunshine. Thinned, in the hope that the turpentine will help soften what wax remains in the wood and blend the two together. I did some tests on the back and in corners, then just wiped it on with a rag.

It's difficult to photograph well without stray reflections, but I'm satisfied. I've not eliminated the marks entirely - I never really expected to - but I think that I've reduced the effect so that they are not so obvious.

Thanks again for the help and encouragement.

I'll give it a few hours, clean off any surplus, let it go off properly, then add further coats over the next few days.

BTW, if anyone has any nice clear 20" wide sweet chestnut boards they don't want, feel free to get in touch!

 

[Glynne]

Just posting to say thank you to everyone who contributed as I've now restored my Monk's Bench.

Different lighting conditions but you can see the difference.
Original finish (I think a stained varnish) softened with meths (thanks ED65) and then cleaned with a cabinet scraper (thanks Eric the Viking). Sanded down with a ROS - 120 grit to 240 grit. Stained with Jacobean dark oak (thanks Custard) and then a coat of yacht varnish.
As the rest isn't exactly pristine I "softened" the varnish sheen with some 320 grit abranet so it would match in.
Thanks again everyone.

 

[ED65]

That's as good a result as you could ask for. Nobody would even guess there'd been a problem in the centre there.