Rebate Planes

[ByronBlack]

I keep seeing the little Stanley 75 Bullnose plane - what exactly is the purpose of this plane?

Also, what plane is the one I need to make dado's, grooves and rebates. I used to own a Record combination plane but wasn't that comfortable using it - is there something else I should look at.

Also, the Record 778 (stanley 78): are these for just creating a rebate on the very edge of a board, or can they be used to create stopped groove/dado?

And finally, I see loads and loads of the wooden rebate/shoudler planes about - are these useful and will these allow me to adjust the width of a dado?

I'm quite confused about all these things, and seeing as i'm not going to be using a moulder/router for quite some time, I would like to expand my knowledge on how to use these planes.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Byron wrote:
keep seeing the little Stanley 75 Bullnose plane - what exactly is the purpose of this plane?

Small doorstop for a small door or paper weight.

Also, what plane is the one I need to make dado's, grooves and rebates. I used to own a Record combination plane but wasn't that comfortable using it - is there something else I should look at.

One option is a Stanley #45. Another is a #50 with extra blades. A #55 is overkill.

Also, the Record 778 (stanley 7: are these for just creating a rebate on the very edge of a board, or can they be used to create stopped groove/dado?

The #778/78 only has one size blade. Therefore it is only only adjustable for edges.

A stoped groove/dado can be made with a routerplane.

And finally, I see loads and loads of the wooden rebate/shoudler planes about - are these useful and will these allow me to adjust the width of a dado?

If you wish to adjust the width of a rebate, the planes of choice are the Stanley #79 side rabbet or the Stanley/LN #98/99 combo.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Scrit]

I keep seeing the little Stanley 75 Bullnose plane - what exactly is the purpose of this plane?

Miniature boat anchor? Actually to clean-up ends if stopped rebates, but I'd recommend getting a Record #077a or Veritas bull-nose rebate instead - far better design. Frankly you can achieve almost anything a bullnose plane can do with a chisel and a firm hand

Also, what plane is the one I need to make dado's, grooves and rebates. I used to own a Record combination plane but wasn't that comfortable using it - is there something else I should look at.

A dado is normally referred to as a housing in the UK these days (sorry) and is a groove cut across the grain, so a dado plane is like a rebate plane but with two major differences - it needs to have nickers on both sides to sever the grain and to make it easier to use a true dado plane will have a skew blade which is significantly less work than a straight across blade

Also, the Record 778 (Stanley 78 ): are these for just creating a rebate on the very edge of a board, or can they be used to create stopped groove/dado?

You could use one to cut a wide dado, but the metal equivalent of the dado planes were the Stanley #39 series of planes (or the Sargent #30-series, even rarer). The best combi plane for working housings is the Stanley #46 as it has a skewed blade and two nickers - Stanley even sold a (now rare) version called the #47 as a dado plane (Alf, where are you?). Given a choice between a #78/078 and the #778 (or for that matter a Woden #78 ) I'd recommend going for the #778 design - the second stem makes them far better to use as the fence tends to unscrew itself in use with the single stem versions

I see loads and loads of the wooden rebate/shoudler planes about - are these useful and will these allow me to adjust the width of a dado?

You need one dado plane for every size you are going to plane. Side adjustments are done using a side rebate plane such as the Record #2506 or Stanley #79/#98/#99 as the man from Oz has already said

Scrit

 

[Pekka Huhta]

Wow, it's hard to add anything to that one

I'll try anyway. I have used the #75 extremely handy in restoring old windows. When you take out the putty and glass, there is always some touching up to do with the wood before you glaze the windows again. New putty gets a better grip on the fresh wood if you touch up the surfaces a bit.

I like also the wooden rebate planes, as many of them (atleast over here) have both a chipbreaker and an adjustable mouth. From time to time a #78 just makes it too rough.

A #78 is handy even without the fences and depth stops. I've seen a boatbuilder "hew" a rabbet for the next lapstrake plank with a dozen rough pushs with a #78. For finish work and curved arcs the local builders prefer a woodie.

...But it's already getting pretty far from the general uses of rebate planes


Pekka

 

[Alf]

I keep seeing the little Stanley 75 Bullnose plane - what exactly is the purpose of this plane?

To part you from your hard-earned cash. Lots and lots of people have bought one thinking "ooo, it's cheaper than a #90 or similar and yet it does the same thing. I'll get me one of those" - this is why they're so common. They then try using it - this is why they're so common secondhand. :wink:

Also, what plane is the one I need to make dado's, grooves and rebates. I used to own a Record combination plane but wasn't that comfortable using it - is there something else I should look at.

Ah, would you like the sensible option or the easily-carried-away one? :lol:
Dados, or housings as we used to call 'em, can go from "needing" a complete set of Stanley #39s (very expensive), set of wooden dado planes (expensive), #46 (expensive, but also versatile) right down to backsaw and chisel (cheap and versatile).
Grooves, ideally a plough plane. Obviously a combination plane will do that and other things as well. Or a fenced router plane, as Derek shows (doing things the hard way though - design stopped grooves out of you work and you'll be happier, IMO). Or some sort of chisel-inna-block-of-wood, or a chisel freehand, or... Well it depends on how long you want to take and how long the groove is. Worth bearing in mind that ye woodworkers of yore all stumped up for a plough plane, despite the cost, 'cos it gets used a lot in traditional construction.

Also, the Record 778/stanley 78 are these for just creating a rebate on the very edge of a board, or can they be used to create stopped groove/dado?

In theory you could plane a groove as wide as the blade I suppose, but no, really they're just there for edge-of-the-board stuff. Handy plane to have. Someone suggested using it as a scrub with a dedicated spare iron - something I'm always meaning to try but Tuit, where art thou?

And finally, I see loads and loads of the wooden rebate/shoudler planes about - are these useful and will these allow me to adjust the width of a dado?

Wooden rebates are very useful indeed - skewed particularly. Not just "as is", but you can get creative to make them into moving fillisters (I'd post a pic, but my connection's up the spout again), dovetail planes, etc.

To adjust the width of a dado you want side rebate planes, as per Derek's post, or a pair of wooden ones. The latter I've never yet seen a pair of, but those who have say they have advantages over the metal ones, particularly with regard to the depth of groove or dado they can tweak. Somewhere or other I've a plan for making your own which I might be able to find, if you're interested. Although I was gutted that you weren't moved to try making the bicycle bandsaw... [-X :wink:

Cheers, Alf

Edit - I was, perforce, composing all this off line and now see I'm comprehensively beaten to the punch. Dammit. Of course it'll take another 10 minutes (if I'm lucky) for the connection to stay up long enough to add this edit...](*,)

 

[ByronBlack]

loads of great info there for me to digest - thanks guys.

However as is usual a couple of other questions now come to mind:

1. What is a fillister?
2. Can a plough plane make a groove that is further into the board than it's fence will allow? I'm assuming a bit of wood near where the groove needs to be could be used as a fence, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Definitions - I just want to see if I've got this right (I would check my books, but alas they are hidden away at my old place in the loft)

- Rebate: a cut-away at the edge of a board?
- Housing or Dado: a cut-away running with the grain down the length of a baord?
- Groove: a cut-away running against the grain across with the width of a board?

Sorry if i'm asking dumb questions here. At some stage I did learn this, but with lack of practice i've forgotten!

In terms of wooden rebates - one of the main reasons why I was asking of their usefulness was because Rutlands (spit) do what seems to be a nice range of Dakota wooden rebates and shoulder planes at good prices, which for me at the moment is a major consideration seeing as I can't afford a nice metal shoulder plane - why are they so expensive??

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

1. What is a fillister?

This is a rebate/rabbet-type plane that planes across the grain (a rebate plane proper planes with the grain).

Here is a ECE (before I cleaned it up). Skew blade, nicker and fence.

2. Can a plough plane make a groove that is further into the board than it's fence will allow?

Yes, but it must run against a batton for a fence.

Definitions - I just want to see if I've got this right (I would check my books, but alas they are hidden away at my old place in the loft)

- Rebate: a cut-away at the edge of a board?
Yes, but with the grain.

- Housing or Dado: a cut-away running with the grain down the length of a baord?
No, a dado runs across the grain. That is why the ideal dado plane uses a skew blade.

- Groove: a cut-away running against the grain across with the width of a board?
No, a groove runs with the grain. Think groove for drawer, as in the pictorial sequence I postedearlier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ByronBlack]

Derek - thanks for clearing the definitions up for me! much appreciated!

 

[Alf]

The rebate with the grain/fillister across the grain definition is a bit contested though - one of Adam C's "helpful" introductions iirc. Generally most people will assume a rebate to covers both but will define the cross grain one by calling it a (guess what) cross-grain rebate.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

1. What is a fillister?

A fillister or filletster plane is a rebate plane with a fence or so I was taught. There are standing fillisters (fixed fence) and moving fillisters as well as sash fillisters (which cuts the rebate on the far side from the fence when sticking sash bars and definitely only ever work with the grain as a cross grain cut would probably smash up the glazing bar as they are pretty delicate) - probably half a dozen others but lord knows what they are. A plain wooden rebate plane has no fence

2. Can a plough plane make a groove that is further into the board than it's fence will allow?

I think the fence rods will get in the way (thinking metal combis here). Fortunately you don't normally need to work that deep.

- Rebate: a cut-away at the edge of a board?
- Housing or Dado: a cut-away running with the grain down the length of a board?

Housing or trench is the term used in all modern C&G teaching texts (i.e. since about the 1950s! - but they also use trenching head not dado head in the main) but they are the same thing - normally a cross grain trench or wide groove to house a shelf, stair tread, etc. You'll see a housing/dado/wide groove worked with the grain a lot less often than a narrow groove. British woodworking machinery manufacturers were using the term "trenching head", "trench" and "housing" before WWI presumablty because they were the terms used in the joinery trade (the main market for machinery) - that and the potential confusion with what we British call a dado rail (which is nowt to do with a trench, groove, housing or whatever is it?)

- Groove: a cut-away running against the grain across with the width of a board?

Narrower housing/dado for decorative purposes or to hold thin backs, etc. frequently with the grain

There seems to be a good deal of confusion about which terms apply - groove or housing. I was taught that a housing should cross the grain whilst a groove doesn't, but as I say there are semi-religious wars fought over this. I suppose part of it is down to the fact that a horizontal element needs to be fairly thick to avoid bowing and that goes into a housing whilst a vertical back is normally much thinner and goes into a groove, ergo the assumption that a groove is a narrow housing :roll:

I think I'll just go off and polish up me turnscrews now...... :wink:

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

Realistically, there's more to just choosing a plane for the job...... you got to be able to clamp your timber well so nothing runs foul of the planes sole or fence. Regular workbench setups in my opinion are inadequate to deal with a good deal of stocks sizes for this purpose.

I'd look into that first if I was you.

I'd also look into deep faces for your planes fences, to enable as much vertical stability as possible to keep that cut clean and square.

Also, these plough/rebate cuts as talked about, depend on blades that are sharpened square....not feathered like a bench plane. Must be wary of that. If you use waterstones often, and don't monitor their flatness much you may sharpen one of these planes blades feathered, causing problems...... sense that'll happen to some who are used to sharpening only with bench planes and begin to learn how to use ploughs etc. ....

Get yourself a stanley 78 or better still a double barred one like Dereks above for starters......forget about using it accross grain.....forget about the stupid nicker.....and just practise with grain rebates utilizing the fence......( I mean, only if you want to :wink: )