Questions about fettling a rusty old panel saw

[Jacob]

Good to hear that the Spear and Jackson saws are well regarded.

They are good. I've got early ones (e.g. 14" tenon saw with curly handle) later ones and in between.
This is a goodun but difficult to sharpen: post807204.html?hilit=spearior#p807204

 

[AndyT]

Spear and Jackson were probably the most successful British saw maker, tracing their origin back to 1760. They made hundreds of different saws, right across the quality spectrum.

But UK manufacturing ceased in 2010 and was transferred to China, so a tool sold new today with the S&J name on is not necessarily going to be comparable to an older one from the last century, say.

 

[AJB Temple]

Interesting. I have a couple of "nice" saws. But quite often in trade suppliers you can buy packs of 3 hard points for just over a tenner. This is basically a consumable. I tend to have a few knocking around and I can't say that I cut any better with the high end stuff.

Be interesting to see how you get on with finessing your saw. Do you have pictures?

(incidentally I feel differently about tenon saws / back saws. Much prefer quality ones. )

 

[Lons]

Definitely some positives for throw away hard tipped saws imo if you are in business where time is money. My building company incorporated a lot of general carpentry and timber work and it was a lot more cost effective for me to buy throw away saws at less than a fiver than pay the lads while they sharpened their saws.

While it's enjoyable using a lovely old saw I don't find any difference in efficiency when comparing them either and as I don't enjoy the sharpen and set process I've got several floating around the workshop.

 

[Ttrees]

I must look out for a good throwaway for cheap to compare to, when I get this one working.
I've never thought about TPI on them before so that might be interesting.
Will take a piccy or two soon.
Tom

 

[Cheshirechappie]

For cross-cutting, I agree that modern hard-points are just as good (and arguably better in some respects, especially when new and sharp) than traditional hand and panel saws. The one area in which the traditional saws can score over hardpoints is in the handle - a nice, well-shaped 19th century style handle is far more comfortable than most hard-points. (The hard-points win over the later 20th century blocky, unshaped handles, though.)

However, when it comes to rip cuts, I haven't found any modern hard-point saw that matches the traditional patterns, new or vintage.

For anyone working by hand, and not using machines to rip stock to width and thickness, a couple of traditional pattern saws filed rip would out-perform hard-points by a distance. One with fairly coarse teeth (4 to 5 tpi seems quite a common specification) of about 26" blade length for heavy stock prep, and one of about 8tpi and 22" length or so for finer cuts (trimming panels to width, dealing with joinery duties for which no tenon saw of adequate depth is available) are VERY useful tools. Not so applicable for site work, when materials are ordered-in at required width and thickness, but that's definitely what I've found for bench work.

Ripping by hand, if you have more than a few trivial cuts to make, is hard work. You need to pace yourself. It is quite a pragmatic approach to do stock prep by machine, if you can afford their space and cost, but if you do go hand-only, it's well worth researching rip tooth geometry to suit your work and sawing skills. A trad rip saw will beat a modern hard-point by a goodly distance.

 

[Ttrees]

Concerning crosscutting saws, I have questions about this...
Tom Lie-Nielsen mentioned that you can get an improvement from a saw by filing slope into the gullets, and that this is rather difficult to achieve by machine.
(Things might have changed since then)

Another YouTube video with Bob Rozaieski
He mentions that the slight variables can help much like a hand stitched rasp.

I sort of had the impression, but have never studied the geometry on hard point saws that they
are designed for plywood aswell , so aren't the same as the geometry on a well sharpened crosscut saw.
Looking at the axi catalogue, it has hardpoint saws anywhere ranging from 7 to 12 TPI
The Bahco barrcuda saws does not state the TPI on the book.
I must go out and check one.

Seems that these disposables have finer tooth counts than the norm for a 20 to 22" traditional panel saw.

Does some of these things not possibly give a hint that it can be better done by a traditional saw?
cleaner cuts is what would be most useful for me.

Do any of you folks ever use a backer board for your crosscut hand saws?

Did some more research and
stumbled across Andy King
He suggests copying the fleam by setting the file into the gullet, rather than alter the angle.
I will do this and make note of the angle for jigs, as my saw teeth are in good nick.
Tom

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There will be some breakout at the back of a cut from pretty well any sawing operation. How much will depend on how coarse the saw teeth are, the species of wood being cut, and how sharp the saw is. The sawyer also has to take some care at the end of a cross-cut to achieve a clean result - it's easy with a heavy hand on the saw and an unsupported offcut to break off quite a large chunk. Ease off the pressure on the saw as the cut completes, and support the offcut until it's completely severed.

Hand and panel saws are not finishing tools, so it's best to allow a bit for trimming to exact length and finish, usually by planing, sometimes by paring, unless the sawn surface will be hidden in the finished job, or you can clean it up by bevelling the piece. Joinery cutting is different - aim for a fit from the saw; the sawn surfaces are usually hidden when the joint is assembled.

 

[Ttrees]

Hi again
It's sounding like it might be a sensible approach for me may be to use a backer if in a pinch for length,
and have another hand saw with a more productive TPI in future for the job.
All of my reclaimed timbers have to be roughly planed beforehand, and some of the longer timbers loose quite a bit.
I figure longer timbers are more useful, than thicker shorter bits, as I have plenty of that.
This bench has thicker components than what I might be needing in the future, so am using the overall heftiest timbers I can use
for a more pleasing to the eye lamination/easiest way to do it.

Pretty much the opposite case from starting with rough sawn boards that require dimensioning,
hence why I am trying to get an idea, if some of you folks might have filed a panel saw or hand saw to a much finer TPI than the standard, for an odd job, or for quite valuable timbers.

Tom

 

[Trevanion]

hence why I am trying to get an idea, if some of you folks might have filed a panel saw or hand saw to a much finer TPI than the standard, for an odd job, or for quite valuable timbers.

I don't know why you would want to bother, by doing that you're making (Or ruining an old saw depending on how you look at it) a far slower cutting saw for extremely marginal gains in the cleanliness of cut. A properly sharpened crosscutting saw with very slight set much like on the cheapie hardpoint saws like the Irwins will have an exceptional finish and very little breakout on the back.

Don't expect a mirror finish cut from a handsaw, it just isn't ever going to happen.

 

[AndyT]

You can avoid breakout by making a deep knife cut across the wood before you cut it. You may as well knife all round. If you want both pieces, you can knife a pair of lines and saw between them.
The knife lines also help when planing square after sawing, if you need to.

 

[Lons]

I'm sure it's just me, I'm suitably knackered after a hard day and a glass or two of the red stuff but imo you seem to have drifted away from your original intention of

not wanting to go over the top of I can help it. There is some room for error on the length of the timbers I plan on using this saw for.
I just don't want to to be making a hames of it on the back of the cut,

f you are cross cutting oversize from a long length which is good practice in any case and if the amount of wood / number of times is relatively small then I'd respectfully suggest it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut scenario. Unless of course you've started down the slippery slope of restoration of old tools which is a different thing altogether and a passion in its' own right.

If all you want to do id crosscut so you can get timber to manageable size then spend a fiver on a hardpoint, cut the stuff and get on to making something with it.
I've just been into the workshop and I still have 7 chuck away saws at least one dated 2012 and all still pretty damn sharp, I've cut everything from thin slaters laths through 9"x 3" joists and a fair amount of hardwood slabs, oak, beech ash, mahogany etc. up to about 18" wide x 3" thick, I have to because I can't get them on to my table saw, mitre saw or bandsaw. Have also cut numerous sheet materials and door bottoms though I use a tracksaw these days.
All of the above cut easily and clean enough without excess effort, if they didn't they would be binned and replaced as I'd rather be producing than sharpening.

Photo shows the 4 types I have, the other 3 not shown are duplicates and yes the handles are cr*p.

I'd add that I had 13 old saws including Diston, Sandvik and Spear & Jackson which needed restoring and I sold the lot for a decent price to a guy who sold on old tools. One member on here advised they were useless and should be thrown away and I won't embarrass him by saying how much I got. On second thoughts he's not the type to be embarrassed - or wrong! :wink:

 

[Ttrees]

I'm sure it's just me, I'm suitably knackered after a hard day and a glass or two of the red stuff but imo you seem to have drifted away from your original intention of

not wanting to go over the top of I can help it. There is some room for error on the length of the timbers I plan on using this saw for.
I just don't want to to be making a hames of it on the back of the cut,

Thanks for your suggestions folks
I should have been a bit clearer about this
I don't exactly need a saw right now, to do such a task as I have room for error, so will be using this old Spear and Jackson panel saw
for this sort of stuff, but I have need for a fine saw soon enough for cutting the ends of the benchtop for end caps.
I don't have a skillsaw and the top is too heavy for crosscutting on the tablesaw.
Indeed I will be scribing deep lines beforehand, I just don't want any surprises (hammer)
and think it may be a bit more productive than having to chop into the knife line with a chisel
quite so much.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

I'm sure it's just me, I'm suitably knackered after a hard day and a glass or two of the red stuff but imo you seem to have drifted away from your original intention of

not wanting to go over the top of I can help it. There is some room for error on the length of the timbers I plan on using this saw for.
I just don't want to to be making a hames of it on the back of the cut,

Thanks for your suggestions folks
I should have been a bit clearer about this
I don't exactly need a saw right now, to do such a task as I have room for error, so will be using this old Spear and Jackson panel saw
for this sort of stuff, but I have need for a fine saw soon enough for cutting the ends of the benchtop for end caps.
I don't have a skillsaw and the top is too heavy for crosscutting on the tablesaw.
Indeed I will be scribing deep lines beforehand, I just don't want any surprises (hammer)
and think it may be a bit more productive than having to chop into the knife line with a chisel
quite so much.

Tom

If you want neat and tidy endgrain you need first to mark the finished line and then cut the mark with a knife. This will be the finished edge. Then saw as close to the cut as you can, within reason - not too close. Any old saw will do. Or new one!
Then plane the sawn end - always working from the edge to the middle, never from the middle off the edge or you get spelches etc. Form a little pitched roof shape down to the line, then take out the middle.

 

[MikeG.]

.......... cut the stuff and get on to making something with it..............

Don't be absurd! The very idea....

 

[D_W]

As far as I know, there's only one UK commercial saw maker who does small scale taper grinding on his saws. That's Shane Skelton in Scarborough. (https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk)

I asked him how he does it and he told me that he uses a belt sander.

Just to slightly OT, some years ago in Japan I asked a swordsmith why he had a Makita belt sander bolted to his bench. Apparently he ground his katana blades to a rough shape on one; worked for him and if you ever fancied purchasing one of his swords, you'd need to find the best part of £30K - Rob

I can only think of one japanese toolmaker who actually works by hand, and I don't even know what his name is. He makes saws, about 25 per year, entirely by hand, and Stan Covington was good enough to send one to me to try out. He had the maker put together a saw that was strong enough to saw US hardwoods with abandon, and it literally did feel like a saw that you could just lay into.

At any rate, the guy literally lives in a one-room house, and best I could figure, on what would be in the range of about $10k-$15k pounds.

The saw was magnificent. If you compared it to another saw made by a guy who did everything else except do the rough work with machines, I doubt you could find the difference between the two. Except the second guy could probably make 4 times as many saws.

 

[D_W]

If you want neat and tidy endgrain you need first to mark the finished line and then cut the mark with a knife. This will be the finished edge. Then saw as close to the cut as you can, within reason - not too close. Any old saw will do. Or new one!
Then plane the sawn end - always working from the edge to the middle, never from the middle off the edge or you get spelches etc. Form a little pitched roof shape down to the line, then take out the middle.

That's pretty much it. No special planes for endgrain, etc.

There is value in tapering a saw (the long saws), though, but leave it to the saw makers. The tension in saws is near the surface. If you start grinding any saw more than taking superficial rust off of the surface and stopping pretty early, you chance ending up with a floppy mess. Re-tensioning a saw is guesswork (I've managed to re-tension a couple, and I've managed to ruin two - I couldn't tell you why some were successful and others weren't).

 

[dannyr]

Good on you D-W for at least having some success, and I agree about the tensioning depending on surface effects. Watched a full time professional in Atkinson and Walker during regular production (in Sheffield) hand tension a circular saw and a long two man hand saw with hammer on a large square anvil recently - the theory is fine and he 'explained' his work as he went, but difficult to see his choices as he did the job - but the results were there. Respect to a craftsman - I'll hand sharpen (not to a pro level, but OK) but definitely not try to tension or thickness taper.