Queen Elizabeth has passed away.

[AJB Temple]

There was an interview on Radio 4 this morning, possibly woman's hour. The Australians have made it clear that they are in no rush to consider the matter and it is likely to be years.

As an aside, there has of late been much more pressure for people alive today to apologise for things that long dead people did years ago, in some cases a couple of hundred years ago. I can think of few things more meaningless than this. It seems largely to be fuelled by the more left leaning media outlets.

 

[Fergie 307]

I do find things like the tipping of Coulsons statue in the harbour rather silly. Surely it is better to use these things as a focal point for discussion. And if you take this approach to its logical conclusion then what next? Many of the great municipal buildings in places like Manchester, Liverpool etc were built with money derived from the cotton trade, dependent on slavery. Should we pull them all down? The V&A, the Albert Hall, and anything else built using wealth obtained as a colonial power, the list goes on and on.

 

[StevieB]

Because an apology today can be used as evidence for recompense tomorrow......

 

[Fergie 307]

I wonder if any monarch actually felt any guilt over being the head of a country that committed what was in fact genocide.

Quote from above talking about Australia

The institutions that British colonisation brought here, from the education that erases us to the prisons that kill us, are designed to destroy the oldest living culture in the world. That’s the legacy of the crown in this country.

The “British empire” declared a war on these shores, against this country’s First Nations peoples. This led to massacres. And you want a minute’s silence from me?

So I would bet that now shes gone Australia may well decide to drop the crown, save charles at his age from long haul travel.

Whilst I entirely agree, I think it is important to bring some historical context. At the time plonking your flag in the ground and claiming a land for your soveriegn was the norm, as was the brutal treatment of the local population if they werent enthusiatic. This is not to say that such behaviour should not be lamented. However I believe that Australia has had its own, essentially independent, government for some time now, and yet the appalling treatment of the aboriginal population has continued. So not sure current issues can be blamed entirely on the monarchy.

 

[Fergie 307]

It's possible to behave scandalously even when in opposition

I agree

Not so - he is widely credited with positive action The weekend Gordon Brown saved the banks from the abyss

Of course the alternative take is that Brown removed most of the regulation introduced by Thatcher, and so precipitated the problem by allowing bankers to do as they pleased. So his intervention was in effect to address a problem that he had allowed to occur in the first place.

 

[D_W]

Of course the alternative take is that Brown removed most of the regulation introduced by Thatcher, and so precipitated the problem by allowing bankers to do as they pleased. So his intervention was in effect to address a problem that he had allowed to occur in the first place.

If he was paralleling things here, we decided that having strict lending standards was discriminatory (if you parse data, it definitely appears to be) and created loans that had little chance of being repaid at the same rates the pricing would've assumed - but removing standards, and removing required data.

How the result was surprising is beyond me.

Every time the lending standards are eased, the cost of real estate goes way up because there is a temporary increase in fake money supply and who goes out and overextends themselves and gets stuck again? Here, it's the lower income borrowers or the folks who have trouble keeping their income at the level of their application and have little else.

Sometimes reality just doesn't work for people when it comes to ideals and then they create a bigger problem than existed before.

 

[Jacob]

...... So not sure current issues can be blamed entirely on the monarchy.

They aren't blamed entirely on the monarchy that would be ludicrous. But they can be blamed on the extended establishment of which she is the head and who instigated these things and carried on defending them to the last.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

How far back should nations go to redeem themselves for past actions? There must be a time before which current generations should not be expected to take, or accept, responsibility for the wrongs of much earlier generations.

The UK has accumulated wealth based upon development of empire through conquest, slavery, and exploitation. Actions which would now be judged unacceptable, but at the time were applauded and rewarded.

The Spanish bought misery, disease, and poverty to much of South and Central America in pursuit of wealth.

Ghenghis Khan created the largest contiguous empire the world had seen through simple brutality.

Europeans (esp. German and British) killed, dispossessed and impoverished native Americans A similar fate befell the Aboriginals.

Effusive apology for past actions and compensation to current surviving generations for long past transgressions is unjustified.

• I am not responsible for the actions of earlier generations,
• I had no input into the actions over which judgement is now being passed
• actions may have been justifiable and understandable in the context of the time

It has all the hallmarks of the historically wounded seeking financial gain on a flaky pretext designed to promote (in some) feelings of guilt.

 

[Fergie 307]

They aren't blamed entirely on the monarchy that would be ludicrous. But they can be blamed on the extended establishment of which she is the head and who instigated these things and carried on defending them to the last.

Well I have to say that you seem to wantvto have your cake and eat it. We have a situation where the monarch is head of state in name only, but is not allowed any say in the conduct of government. Day to day government is carried out by those elected by the people to represent them. So you want the monarchy to shoulder blame for things that it is completely powerless to influence. I for one would have been very interested to know the views of our late queen on various issues. I suspect she might have talked a good deal more sense than many of our politicians.

.

 

[Jacob]

.....I for one would have been very interested to know the views of our late queen on various issues. I suspect she might have talked a good deal more sense than many of our politicians.

.

Could be true. Rumour has it she was anti brexit and she did seem to have a useful role in the NI agreement. I expect she would have seen Johnson as the appallingtwat he really is, etc

 

[Jacob]

How far back should nations go to redeem themselves for past actions? There must be a time before which current generations should not be expected to take, or accept, responsibility for the wrongs of much earlier generations.
.....

Maybe as far as those who are still suffering from the consequences, such as Palestinians, West Indian descendants of slaves, native Americans and Australians, for starters. Could look at the depredations inflicted upon our own recent ancestors with the Highland clearances, the purges of Ireland and Wales ..... and so on!

 

[thetyreman]

lets not forget that slavery was abolished in 1833, almost 200 years ago...by the english.

 

[Jacob]

lets not forget that slavery was abolished in 1833, almost 200 years ago...by the english.

But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segregation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.

 

[Fergie 307]

Could be true. Rumour has it she was anti brexit and she did seem to have a useful role in the NI agreement. I expect she would have seen Johnson as the appallingtwat he really is, etc

oh I should think her candid views of her various Prime minister's would make fascinating reading.

 

[thetyreman]

But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segragation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.

so why should my generation be blamed for that? I'm in my 30s, nobody in my family is connected to the slave trade, as you know it was only mostly the elite who actually had the money to buy the ships e.t.c, same as today, most people are not in the elite, like 99%, so I'm being told it's my fault because I am white, also on top of that, it's completely ignored that white people can live in poverty by most people, and it goes against what they're trying to prove. Only the EU tried to really expose how bad and deep the poverty was, which was actually one of the main drivers for leaving the EU, tories don't like being exposed.

 

[Fergie 307]

But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segragation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.

Indeed, plenty still to be done before we can claim any sort of genuine equality. Sadly if history teaches us anything it is that we humans are not very good at being nice to one another.

 

[Jacob]

so why should my generation be blamed for that? I'm in my 30s, nobody in my family is connected to the slave trade, as you know it was only mostly the elite who actually had the money to buy the ships e.t.c, same as today, most people are not in the elite, like 99%, so I'm being told it's my fault because I am white, also on top of that, it's completely ignored that white people can live in poverty by most people, and it goes against what they're trying to prove. Only the EU tried to really expose how bad and deep the poverty was, which was actually one of the main drivers for leaving the EU, tories don't like being exposed.

Not your fault it's the "elite" who still hold power and wealth and use it against us.

 

[Marc Shaw]

oh I should think her candid views of her various Prime minister's would make fascinating reading.

I know she didn't like Thatcher at all! She felt that she (Thatcher) had destroyed her country and was angry at Thatcher's refusal to support sanctions on South Africa. I'm a dyed in the wool Republican, but the late Queen was cut from better cloth than Thatcherite creatures.

 

[Fergie 307]

I am sure she had to endure many things that must have raised her eyebrows, or that she found personally distasteful. A knighthood for Robert Mugabe for example. Or shaking hands with Martin McGuiness, a man undoubtedly involved in the murder of Earl Mountbatten.

 

[artie]

Effusive apology for past actions and compensation to current surviving generations for long past transgressions is unjustified.

How about speaking out against current injustices or will it be ok to leave it to our great grandchildren to say it wasn't their fault?