Quangsheng V4 No.6 review

[matthewwh]

It's always difficult to determine the line between a 'fault' and an 'opportunity for improvement'.

Take Volkswagen Golf's for example - the same model produced for many years with many revisions. Does the fact that VW have found ways to make the car faster, safer, more economical etc amount to an admission that the original Mk1 Golf was fault ridden? Has everyone who bought a Golf been issued with a free replacement car at their dealership's expense every time VW found a way of improving them? There have been recalls of cars for life and death safety issues, like the recent problem with Toyotas leaking fuel, but I have never heard of a full recall for ergonomic reasons.

Having said that I do like a happy customer, so if you give me a call on Monday Brian I'm sure we can sort something out. On a wider scale, if we can come up with an alternative handle that can be swapped out by the user I don't see a problem with popping one in the post to our existing No.6 owners.

 

[LuptonM]

Is the handle the same as those found on the stanley plane (ie size and location of holes)? If so it would be easy for the user to make his own using the plans on the LV site and shaping it to his/her requirements.

The shape of the handle is a pretty small issue and is a personal choice. e.g Its well documented Alf hates LV rear handles but they seem pretty comfortable to me.

It would obvious be ridiculous to recall planes based on the handles, but I think Brian was joking anyway

As long as the car has a good engine, I don't mind reupholstering the seats

 

[JohnCee]

Well given that the handle problem is now a "known" issue and has been confirmed by a wide range of experienced users and re-documented in the latest BWW I suggest it would be appropriate for Matthew to demonstrate his much noted excellence as a high end supplier by recalling all No 6 dispatched to date and replacing them with an amended alternative or full refund. Having pointed out this fault shortly after receipt and not found it's annoyance diminished over the intervening year I am not a happy customer.

 

[Modernist]

It's always difficult to determine the line between a 'fault' and an 'opportunity for improvement'.

Take Volkswagen Golf's for example - the same model produced for many years with many revisions. Does the fact that VW have found ways to make the car faster, safer, more economical etc amount to an admission that the original Mk1 Golf was fault ridden? Has everyone who bought a Golf been issued with a free replacement car at their dealership's expense every time VW found a way of improving them? There have been recalls of cars for life and death safety issues, like the recent problem with Toyotas leaking fuel, but I have never heard of a full recall for ergonomic reasons.

Having said that I do like a happy customer, so if you give me a call on Monday Brian I'm sure we can sort something out. On a wider scale, if we can come up with an alternative handle that can be swapped out by the user I don't see a problem with popping one in the post to our existing No.6 owners.

Well thanks for coming back quickly Matthew. I take your point but a development is something like the finer thread on the adjuster of block planes (which I also pointed out a long time ago in my review) whereas a design fault is what we have with the No 6 as it directly affects and seriously limits it's usability. As for your second point if top end hand planes are not about ergonomics then I don't know what is.

Incidentally later Golfs were in fact slower than the originals - as demonstrated by Top Gear

I'll call you Monday

 

[woodbloke]

It's been very interesting to read David Savage's review of the No6 in the latest issue of BW...it's not liked at all (mainly 'cos of the handle) - Rob

Really! I thought it was a hugely positive review of the Quangsheng considering that David is probably the most outspoken tool critic in the world. The Stanley got the full broadside and came off much worse, vis: "Honey, this is no sweetheart, this is a dog!" compared with the Quangsheng's "The machining is exceptional, as it should be. The sole is flat, as it should be. The blade is made from high carbon T10 steel hardened to RC63 and is very impressive and I don't do 'impressed' very often."

The handles were the only aspect he found wanting, and putting a handle designed by a metalworker into the hands of one of the most gifted wood/human interface specialists on the planet, I kind of expected some constructive criticism there. As he says though, it's not a hard thing to put right. The position of the handle relative to the frog on the No. 6 is a known issue and another one that we hope to get sorted out, thankfully it doesn't affect the other sizes in the range.

I agree with Brian's point about informed and realistic reviews - well done Nick Gibbs!

Yes!...really Matthew. He starts by saying his 'first impression' (important that :wink: ) is that it's 'an impressive piece of work' and then goes on to say all the nice things about it. He then finishes by saying that he 'found this plane about as useful as a cast steel and brass paperweight, and this was the unanimous view of the four people who used it extensively in my workshop' The conclusion is Matt, that this is a wartsn'all review and it would have been good if you'd mentioned his concluding scentence as well. As you said, the issue is a known one and QS will probably sort it fairly smartly - Rob

 

[Alf]

That's quite amusing, given that a cast steel and brass paperweight would be really very useful indeed... :lol:

So how did he went from all the nice stuff to "paperweight" based solely on the handle? Hmm, interesting.

 

[Modernist]

That's quite amusing, given that a cast steel and brass paperweight would be really very useful indeed... :lol:

So how did he went from all the nice stuff to "paperweight" based solely on the handle? Hmm, interesting.

Maybe he tried to plane some wood

 

[yetloh]

On a wider scale, if we can come up with an alternative handle that can be swapped out by the user I don't see a problem with popping one in the post to our existing No.6 owners.

It also appies to the No 4 that I reviewed for F&C this month - the plane is beautifully made, the blade is brilliant but the handle is very uncomfortable to the point where, if it was in my workshop, I simply wouldn't use it. The real problem is that the tote is far too upright which, on the no 4 at least, means that it must be too short if it is not to collide with the lateral adjuster. My review contains a photo of the QS No 4 in front of my old and very comfortable Record No 5 and the difference in angle is quite striking.

I fear the solution may not be quite as simple as replacing the handle. On the No 6 a new handle would help because it could be taller, but it would still be too upright to be ideal. On the No 4, the angle would have to be changed because of the height restriction. That would require a corresponding change in the angle of the long fixing screw and its threaded hole in the plane casting which is not a user fixable problem for existing planes. This is why I suggested earlier in this thread that anyone contemplating buying a No 4 should try before they buy.

Jim

 

[matthewwh]

The primary function of a bench plane is to alter the shape and texture of wood. It needs to have handles so that you can push it along.

The primary function of a car is to provide transport - it needs seats and controls so that you can drive it.

In both cases it is nice if the user finds the product comfortable, personally I find Jaguars more comfortable than Fiestas, but that still doesn't constitute a fault in the Fiesta and plenty of folk continue to buy them. If someone turned up at a Ford dealership demanding a free hand-stitched calf leather interior to replace the 'faulty' one in their old Fiesta, most people would regard them as being somewhat 'eccentric'.

We also offer Clifton planes, the handles of which are undoubtedly more comfortable and ergonomically designed than Quangsheng handles, you pays your money and takes your choice.

I think what this process has really shown up has less to do with planes and more to do with just how good a 'real' product review can be. If anything I am more astonished at how conditioned people have become to overwhelmingly positive reviews and how they react to something with a bit more bite to it. I have yet to see Jim's review in F&C but from what he has mentioned on here I suspect it will draw similar conclusions.

Most magazines shy away from heavyweight reviewers like David because they are worried about him upsetting their advertisers, far from being upset I was delighted with it. Just because David found a couple of negative points doesn't make it a negative review, if anything it adds extra credence and weight to all the other aspects that he did like. I can now give customers a more detailed answer to the question "what benefit is there in paying twice as much for a Clifton?" Customers can decide if the three figure amount they save by choosing a Quangsheng is enough to warrant putting up with a less comfortable handle or making a new one. QS get some valuable and carefully considered input and Nick sells lots more magazines - everybody wins.

 

[woodbloke]

Just because David found a couple of negative points doesn't make it a negative review, if anything it adds extra credence and weight to all the other aspects that he did like.

Matthew, I can see you're point of view and there's absolutely nothing wrong with you defending your product, but when a heavy hitter like David Savage publishes a review to the effect that he (and others) finds the plane as useful as a cast iron and brass paperweight, you have to take that comment on board, doncha?..in the overall context, it was a negative review! As you said elsewhere, QS no doubt read all that's been said and will rapidly take steps to rectify this particular issue with the No6 tote and positioning thereof, so I would expect in the not too distant future to see a revised version appearing on the WH site.

Interestingly though, he said at the beginning of the article that if he were to buy another plane, it would be a LV BU smoother with an O1 blade...guess what my next acquisition from Axminster will be? :lol: - Rob

 

[Jacob]

Being of a suspicious mind I'd be inclined to wonder about any reviews from the media people as you don't know if they are being sponsored by the opposition.
Best to listen to the forums IMHO, slagging everything off without prejudice!

 

[Trizza]

I find my QS No 6 incredibly useful, and haven't had any problems with the handle position. Sure its tricky to adjust in-cut, but thats no big deal for me. It was still incredible value for money. So to me this David guy sounds like he just wishes he was the Jeremy Clarkson of the woodworking world, but without the talent or wit to achieve it.

 

[woodbloke]

So to me this David guy sounds like he just wishes he was the Jeremy Clarkson of the woodworking world, but without the talent or wit to achieve it.

Trouble is Trizza, he's got more talent in his little finger that JC will ever have in his entire bloated body...some of the stuff that he does is incredible. It's a matter of taste whether you like it or not though... - Rob

 

[Trizza]

So to me this David guy sounds like he just wishes he was the Jeremy Clarkson of the woodworking world, but without the talent or wit to achieve it.

Trouble is Trizza, he's got more talent in his little finger that JC will ever have in his entire bloated body...some of the stuff that he does is incredible. It's a matter of taste whether you like it or not though... - Rob

In terms of writing or in terms of woodworking? I'm solely referring to writing here.

 

[yetloh]

So to me this David guy sounds like he just wishes he was the Jeremy Clarkson of the woodworking world, but without the talent or wit to achieve it.

Trouble is Trizza, he's got more talent in his little finger that JC will ever have in his entire bloated body...some of the stuff that he does is incredible. It's a matter of taste whether you like it or not though... - Rob

In terms of writing or in terms of woodworking? I'm solely referring to writing here.

I don't like some of his furniture, but I must say that he writes very intelligently and thoughtfully about furniture design although, again, I may not always agree with him. Give me opinionated rather than bland writing any day of the week.

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

Give me opinionated rather than bland writing any day of the week.

Jim

Agree with that Jim...I don't especially like the stuff he makes (spidery chairs etc :-& ) but he's always interesting to read - Rob

 

[bugbear]

That's quite amusing, given that a cast steel and brass paperweight would be really very useful indeed... :lol:

So how did he went from all the nice stuff to "paperweight" based solely on the handle? Hmm, interesting.

Maybe he tried to plane some wood

At the risk of over extending the car analogy, a car missing one wheel is clearly useless, but a thoughtful reviewer might still find the car excellent (or not). A missing wheel makes a car useless, and yet is so easily fixed, it's still worth while reviewing the other features.

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

The irony is that I did exactly that (a favourable review) on receiving the plane, pointing out it's several excellent features. It wasn't until I used the plane for real work that I became aware of it's shortcomings. It is a real pity that a simple design error should spoil what is an outstanding attempt to produce a competitive product in terms of quality, capability and price.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

The Clifton tote is the only thing I don't like about Cliffies - they're designed so nastily upright with ergonomics in mind, I'm told - presumably for use on power-oriented high work benches - guess the same is the case with Veritas. I have seven of the damn things destined for the bin as soon as I make their replacements (the metal bits work beautifully, but my wrist tells me to do this everytime I've spent a long day prepping stock - and then I forget.)

 

[dh7892]

I must say that I'm a bit surprised by the strength of feeling about the handles. I found mine perfectly fine. I'll be interested to see if my feeling changes after some heavy usage sessions.

Perhaps Mathew could include some hand moisturiser with every purchase for those of you with more delicate hands? :lol: