President Elect's 'top team'

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But they did not vote for what we eventually got, or failed to get, in this case.
MPs are not simply delegates directed to follow instructions. We elect them as our representatives to work on our behalf, which may work against public opinion, may not even be what they promised. The referendum was not binding - it was an opinion poll, albeit badly worded.
We then pass judgement in future elections.
Completely wrong.

What do MPs do?​

The UK public elects Members of Parliament (MPs) to represent their interests and concerns in the House of Commons

Parliament website

The lack of public trust in MPs arises because they fail to do that which they promise. I want my MP to vote in my interest, not yours!!
Responsibility lies with Johnson, the leave lobby, and the government, who together failed to deliver what was promised, which was supposed to be a brave new world, not merely to leave under any terms and conditions.
That we should have stayed in the EU, and offering a poorly thought through referendum was foolish, is something you and I may agree upon.

But it was a two horse race with a winner and a loser. Remainers lost because they were complacent and failed to sell their view of the future. Brexit won. End of!

That they have failed to deliver goes back to the first point - "The lack of public trust in MPs arises because they fail to do that which they promise".
 
For the record I've not stopped engaging with anyone, why would I stop engaging with ideological pygmies? They're great fun to debate with! ;)
 
but Tories are the most successful political party in the world and have been in power for most of the last half a century

also the Tories have the weight of the wealthy behind them

under PR Labour would split, its 2 parties in reality, the Corbyn left and the more centre left
I suspect equally true of the Tories, Cameron style one nation on the one side headbangers like Braverman on the other.
 
At least there will be someone in the White House in 8 or 9 weeks if he's not assassinated that could broker a deal without further escalating the conflict which I'm sure Putin would want to end sooner rather than later.
Putin could end the conflict instantly; by pulling out of the Ukraine. He won't, of course, but if he wanted it to end he could.
 
There's an as long convention in UK democracy that referendums aren't used and are advisory in nature only. That folk believed the lies coming from the Brexit campaigners underline the nature of the referendum - in a properly run e.g. Swiss-style referendum those lies wouldn't have been possible.
I agree referenda are an unpredictable and dangerous way to govern.

Parliamentary sovereignty ultimately has precedence anyway - and it is that sovereignty which allows them to seek opinion on controversial issues through a referendum.

The various bits of legislation required to exit the EU were all (I think) the outcome of deliberations and votes in Parliament - so it is somewhat debateable whether Brexit was the product of the referendum directly, or Parliament choosing to vote based on its outcome.

Had MPs so chosen they could also have proposed legislation which would have prevented exit - or simply voted against that which was put forward.

That they did not is probably a mix of constitutional concerns related to a failure to act on an "advisory" referendum, and the shambolic inability of MPs from the Remain side of the house (all parties) to put up an effective campaign.
 
I don't think either of the main parties would be, is that a bad thing !
A problem with PR is that you rarely end up with a majority, and instead have a number of (often fairly extreme) parties with a small number of members of parliament. Those small parties then end up as kingmakers (going into coalitions with larger parties), but then end up with greater power and influence than their vote share would warrant.

FPTP is far from perfect either; I'm just making the point that while PR is "fair" in terms of numbers, those numbers can have influence that outstrips their vote share.
 
I think there is another dimension to this that isn't being aired here:

I disagree that there was not a "sufficiently convincing argument" from Remain - the details were absolutely crystal clear - all of the negative things that have happened were predicted and evidenced.

The other factor is that the Leave camp pursued a deliberate campaign of lies and deceit. Alongside this were the "Brexit Aligned" press, who desperately wanted Brexit for their own aims and profit - and broadcast the lies and deceit even though they knew it was a lie. And alongside all of that were the Social Media Echo-Chambers where the people who had swallowed the lies - mostly because they wanted to believe them and wanted the outcomes they were lied to about - and were singularly not able to entertain the "opposing opinion", despite the mountain of credible evidence that supported it...

Finally, alongside and supporting all of that - the deliberate lies, the deliberate precipitation of the known lies, and the entrenched partisan Echo-Chambers - alongside all of that was the social media Bot Accounts (funded and supported by shady sources such as the Kremlin and Tufton Street) flooding those Echo Chambers and empowering the entrenched partisan followers to deny the evidence mounted against their views. Those bot farms disappeared very quickly after the referendum (but have also been used to equal effect in the recent US Election - and again the activity disappeared very quickly after the Election).

^^All of these things were actively pursued by the very wealthy, in pursuit of their selfish aims, and targeted the least well educated in society to vote against their own best interests.

And alongside all of that, the ghouls of the Brexit Press were active in pursuing what they nick-named "balance" from all other media outlets, including the BBC - but this was definitely not "balance" - and instead simply a counter-argument based on known lies - and insisted that this pack of "known lies" was also propagated by the "responsible" media, threatening to call them biased if they did not meet with the blackmail and represent a known lie - which was the "opposing view".


I think that covers most of it.

Sadly, the least well educated cannot accept that they were lied to, even when they discover they were lied to, and deep down know that their opinions are based upon known lies, because human nature is a fickle master. People are known to dig their heels in even when their views are demonstrably based upon an easily proven falsehood. The most well educated are more likely to accept the evidenced view and allow the facts and truth to guide their opinions.

If you feel uncomfortable with the above paragraph, you ought not to, because it is a very well evidenced field of research, and if you try to refute the body of evidence supporting it, that basically signals a pre-existing bias and an unwillingness to accept credible facts and truths. Which is poignant, don't you think?
I can agree with much that you write - except that it was a two horse race, both starting from the same place, both wanting to get to the same winning line, one lost, the other won.

Bluntly optimistic glass half full lies won more votes than the Remain reality check. Brexit had two star performers when in comes to public presentation - Farage and Johnson - both of whom could sell ice creams to Inuit. Remain had none.

Politics is now marketing - substance less important than perceptions. Just as folk pass by own brand products to favour often inferior premium products simply for the label on the packet.

This is the new reality - successful politicians in the future will be the one with the strongest brand.

The US election is proof enough - an dishonest convicted felon is elected president over a lady who clearly has some brains, a legal background and apparent decency. Starmer won the UK with ease mainly competing against a completely devalued Tory brand.

Remainers lost - get used to it, stop making excuses for it, make what we have work as best it can, learn the lesson and campaign more effectively next time. If that means choosing spin over substance to win office, sadly that is what will count.
 
Perhaps there are many people in the USA who are now actually sick and tired of funding other people's wars, the killing of their soldiers and expected to be police service of the world!
WHY should the Americans always be expected to pay the lion's share of NATO etc and then because Trump comes along and objects to this he's a monster according to the hard of thinking left wingers?
It's about time the EU/Europe stood on its own feet and got it's own army instead of expecting the USA to be the main player every time.
The US has invested in foreign affairs at all levels in order to maintain and develop economic and political control. Nothing benevolent about it. Withdrawal from that policy is another step toward the US becoming far less significant on the world stage.
 
If there was another election tomorrow, Starmer et al based on their lack of credibility so far would immediately be voted out of office especially now that the temperatures up here are just above freezing with a dusting of snow to for good measure so the older people will never forgive him and he's effectively a lame duck PM even now.

I know about all the accusations surrounding Trump but he isn't our president. Starmer however is and an utter and compulsive liar he is too who cheated and deliberately lied to the voters to get his party into office with the cover story that they hadn't realised how bad things were when they are found wanting. If they hadn't realised that then they should have left well alone. He will go down as the worst PM in the last century.

If there was another election in the USA tomorrow then Trump would be president elect again. That's the difference between the two.
 
The US has invested in foreign affairs at all levels in order to maintain and develop economic and political control. Nothing benevolent about it. Withdrawal from that policy is another step toward the US becoming far less significant on the world stage.
One of the reasons why people voted for Trump was his stance on NATO. The ordinary people were fed up of the government using their hard earned money for other people's wars and being the main cash cow.
Trump is more interested in the welfare of his own country rather than interfering in the nations of others and unless it's in the USA's interests I can see him not getting involved and quite frankly I really don't blame him.
There are new economic kids on the block so he will have his work cut out with dealing with those without spending time sorting out other people's conflicts.
 
but Tories are the most successful political party in the world and have been in power for most of the last half a century
Again has that been a good thing, six steps forward and then maybe four steps back at the next election and it becomes just a game of tennis, the best thing to resolve a really big issue has often been a fresh eyes approach with new faces. The other option is a multi party approach where each party has a representation in the government so a wider range of ideas.
 
so the older people will never forgive him
Along with small businesses and the farmers.

It does seem that there is a common theme in British politics, say one thing and then do something else because the objective is wining the election and then milking the system for all it's worth because you know you have five years and might lose the next election. What is needed is some system that allows the public to vote out the government in certain circumstances such as if they win by deceipt and then they would not feel as cosy.
 
One of the reasons why people voted for Trump was his stance on NATO. The ordinary people were fed up of the government using their hard earned money for other people's wars and being the main cash cow.
Trump is more interested in the welfare of his own country rather than interfering in the nations of others and unless it's in the USA's interests I can see him not getting involved and quite frankly I really don't blame him.
There are new economic kids on the block so he will have his work cut out with dealing with those without spending time sorting out other people's conflicts.
I'm sure all you've written is true, but again, US investment in world affairs was always to do with expansion of their markets and, following that, of their ideology (global capitalism). It's how they became so 'important' on so many levels on the world stage. Trump's politics, by contrast, are the next step in the decline of both affluence in and influence of the USA, its economy and its ideology. In that sense, there's an inevitability about his coming into power.
 
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