Precise and Imprecise Tools?

[MikeG.]

..........That's an interesting point. I assume, in my innocence, that planes can only get flatter with use........

Ooooh no, no no. Planes which are used on the edge of boards will wear a hollow down the length of the plane, generally slightly on the skew (ie not parallel to the edges). Planes are very often not run their full length, and so will wear more at the front and middle. As has been said, they flex slightly, too, so will wear more where the pressure is the highest. They don't have to be perfectly flat to work perfectly well, but the assumption that because they are old they will be flat is generally the opposite of the reality.

 

[Gerry]

Yes you can get precision tools but that only applies to certain types such as measuring instruments and reference components like set squares.
A hand tool such as a chisel or hammer is not a precision tool. A chisel may be ground with a precision edge but that is the manufacturing process not the chisel itself.
Measuring equipment are also tools and these should fit three sets of criteria. They should be precise, accurate and repeatable.

Gerry

 

[Setch]

Not sure of that example - a hammer with a crooked face will drive nails crooked. Sure, you can adjust your swing to compensate, but this is working around it's imprecise nature.

 

[Andy Kev.]

..........That's an interesting point. I assume, in my innocence, that planes can only get flatter with use........

Ooooh no, no no. Planes which are used on the edge of boards will wear a hollow down the length of the plane, generally slightly on the skew (ie not parallel to the edges). Planes are very often not run their full length, and so will wear more at the front and middle. As has been said, they flex slightly, too, so will wear more where the pressure is the highest. They don't have to be perfectly flat to work perfectly well, but the assumption that because they are old they will be flat is generally the opposite of the reality.

I suppose that now you and CheshireChappie mention it, it is fairly obvious that the plane ends up reflecting its use and/or user. While I tend to use just one or two planes for jointing, I don't think that I would ever use them only for jointing but I can imagine there are workshops where exactly that happens.

 

[FatmanG]

Sorry to bring up an old thread that I came across doing a search for something else. My understanding of a precision tool would be a tool that measures therefore can be checked for accuracy. In terms of hand tools the precision is in the user, a 1000£ saw v 10£ saw can both cut a straight line in wood but I can't with either anyway back to my shed

 

[Setch]

I'll reiterate my hammer example. A saw with badly set teeth will not cut straight, or will pull to oneside. You may be able to compensate, but that is not necessary with a precisely made and sharpened tool.

 

[MikeG.]

In other words, the original tool is not the issue, but rather how it has been maintained and sharpened. So, my contention that there is no such thing as an imprecise hand tool holds.

 

[FatmanG]

In other words, the original tool is not the issue, but rather how it has been maintained and sharpened. So, my contention that there is no such thing as an imprecise hand tool holds.

I have to agree Mike as the tool will perform precisely as it was made the hand factor makes it imprecise

 

[That would work]

Thing is, way back when, chisels were either classed as 'firmer' or 'bevel edged' (which were not intended to be struck with a mallet) The bevel edge ones were ground down pretty thin along the sides. I have some which are almost a feather edge. Then we got 'firmer bevel edge', like the maples blue chip to name just one. When did anyone last buy a true 'firmer' chisel?
For me the old rather delicate style of a true bevel edge chisel is far and away nicer to use than a newer chunky hybrid type which, as has been said can't really get into a tight dovetail corner in the same way.... they're just 'nicer' IMHO
In terms of a precise tool... for me a delicate nice to handle tool will provoke a more careful and therefore precise attitude.

 

[Jacob]

...... When did anyone last buy a true 'firmer' chisel?....

I've bought several old and new over the years. The firmer is the basic all purpose chisel for chopping out across the grain, mortices and DT housings being the most common usage.
The bulk of the rectangular cross section helps push/break out the waste, as precisely as you want.
Mortice chisel is basically a very fat firmer for pushing even more waste out without jamming.
Bevel edge is for finishing off, cleaning up, getting into corners etc, can be hit with a mallet, can be done without.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

This seems to be a going round in circles discussion without a clear end point - so let me add to the confusion:

Precision in squares etc is measurable and there are clear standards. Whether it is meaningful depends on the precision needed for the task in hand - no point in paying for micron precision when +/- 0.5mm is more than adequate

Premium price tools are often nice to look at, hold, use and usually function as intended. But as has been pointed out, it is a case of horses for courses - no sense in destroying a £60 chisel if you just want to open a can of paint.

Premium tools are often nice to use and elegant in design. I call it the bone china effect - in a tea drinking hierarchy a ceramic mug trumps a polystyrene cup - but both are outclassed in the tea drinking world by a bit of crown derby.

They are often bought to endow the owner with status and respect - a full set of LN chisels and planes would cost many £000's. Some may see it as a waste of money but we should all have the right to indulge our (legal) passions.

So do expensive pretty tools make you a better craftsman - mostly not in my view providing tools are properly sharpened or set for the task. But we should be aware that frequently at the low end of the market tools will not deliver as they claim:

- chisels and saws with steel the consistency of fudge - frequent resharpening
- clamps with the clamping force of a muscular sparrow
- drills that are dimensionally challenged
- screwdrivers with bendy tips
- spanners cast not forged which snap if hit

It is worth bearing in mind that the craftsmen of old had a very limited set of hand tools and not a power tool in sight. The quality of work they could turn out far exceeds that which many could aspire to.

The typical beginner apprentice would work 60 hours a week for a master craftman for possibly 7 years before "qualifying". They would spend (literally) years learning to sharpen planes, chisels and saws using basic kit before progressing to dovetails for drawer, M&T joints for furniture and doors etc, carving, inlay work etc etc.

So the main barrier to woody perfection is mainly a lack of skill, not a lack of tool precision. This takes time and effort!

 

[thetyreman]

So the main barrier to woody perfection is mainly a lack of skill, not a lack of tool precision. This takes time and effort!

+1

patience as well I'd add to that list.

 

[FatmanG]

This seems to be a going round in circles discussion without a clear end point - so let me add to the confusion

So the main barrier to woody perfection is mainly a lack of skill, not a lack of tool precision. This takes time and effort!

Yep that's exactly the way I see it

 

[transatlantic]

There is no doubt that you can make a cheap tool perform almost as well as an expensive tool (with fettling), but the key ingredient is a lot of experience.

I find it quite irritating when you see people with 20 years+ experience telling newbies who have never used tool X, and are looking to buy one .... "Oh you don't need to buy this or that new, just get a second hand one and restore it"

Right. So they've never used tool X, and now the're supposed to restore one?

:roll: :roll:

 

[MikeG.]

There is no doubt that you can make a cheap tool perform almost as well as an expensive tool (with fettling), but the key ingredient is a lot of experience.

This argument is valid for some tools, such as planes, but irrelevant with others. It is simply ridiculous, for instance, for a beginner to spend a large amount of money on an expensive chisel, for instance, when it will be precisely as useless when blunt as something bought for a pound from a flea market. If you can sharpen one you can sharpen the other, and when sharp they are exactly as capable as each other. The only two differences are appearance (so what) and how long an edge lasts.

I find it quite irritating when you see people with 20 years+ experience telling newbies who have never used tool X, and are looking to buy one .... "Oh you don't need to buy this or that new, just get a second hand one and restore it"

If the restoration involves nothing more than sharpening, then your irritation is misplaced.

I would argue that restoring even a battered old plane is perfectly possible for a novice. Cleaning up rusty metal and flattening a sole don't require any special knowledge or experience, and aren't in any way difficult. What is difficult for a newcomer is setting up a plane. In other words, it isn't the restoration which is the issue, it is the adjustment.

What is at issue here is the breakdown in the chain.... In the old days knowledge was passed down by individual to individual, and almost everyone had a passable knowledge of basic woodworking. Need to get a tool working? Easy, ask Uncle Jim or cousin Fred. He'll show you. With woodworking having reduced to a very small niche pass-time, newcomers seeking knowledge don't have the same opportunity to learn from others and become easy prey to the peddlars of gimmicks and unnecessary bits of flashy kit, none of which will produce any better results than a cheaper or second hand tool once the initial edge has worn off. It's therefore a bit frustrating to find newcomers defending these peddlars of bling when the bling itself offers nothing more than false promise.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Perhaps slightly off the original topic but I showed my son how to restore a plane when he was doing the modern equivalent of O level woodwork (which doesn’t involve much woodwork!). He ended up with a really good Record 5 1/2 for twenty quid and a good understanding of how it worked. Seeing him using it still reminds me how it was one of the best £20’s he’s ever scrounged off me!

 

[transatlantic]

There is no doubt that you can make a cheap tool perform almost as well as an expensive tool (with fettling), but the key ingredient is a lot of experience.

This argument is valid for some tools, such as planes, but irrelevant with others. It is simply ridiculous, for instance, for a beginner to spend a large amount of money on an expensive chisel, for instance, when it will be precisely as useless when blunt as something bought for a pound from a flea market. If you can sharpen one you can sharpen the other, and when sharp they are exactly as capable as each other. The only two differences are appearance (so what) and how long an edge lasts.

I find it quite irritating when you see people with 20 years+ experience telling newbies who have never used tool X, and are looking to buy one .... "Oh you don't need to buy this or that new, just get a second hand one and restore it"

If the restoration involves nothing more than sharpening, then your irritation is misplaced.

I would argue that restoring even a battered old plane is perfectly possible for a novice. Cleaning up rusty metal and flattening a sole don't require any special knowledge or experience, and aren't in any way difficult. What is difficult for a newcomer is setting up a plane. In other words, it isn't the restoration which is the issue, it is the adjustment.

What is at issue here is the breakdown in the chain.... In the old days knowledge was passed down by individual to individual, and almost everyone had a passable knowledge of basic woodworking. Need to get a tool working? Easy, ask Uncle Jim or cousin Fred. He'll show you. With woodworking having reduced to a very small niche pass-time, newcomers seeking knowledge don't have the same opportunity to learn from others and become easy prey to the peddlars of gimmicks and unnecessary bits of flashy kit, none of which will produce any better results than a cheaper or second hand tool once the initial edge has worn off. It's therefore a bit frustrating to find newcomers defending these peddlars of bling when the bling itself offers nothing more than false promise.

If you have someone to teach you in person, or at least someone to guide you, then I would absolutely agree with all your points. But when you're self taught, it's a recipe for frustration, and is probably going to put you off the hobby altogeather.

If you want to encourage someone into woodworking, get them woodworking! .. not restoring old tools to save a few quid.

 

[MikeG.]

To be useful, I think your comments have to be tool specific. There is a vast difference between the work required to bring a chisel back into use as compared to a plane, for instance. You keep saying "restoring old tools" in some derogatory way when in fact there is absolutely nothing whatever to do to bring an old chisel into life other than put an edge on it......precisely what you'll have to do with your fancy £250 chisel set after using them for a week.

Oh, and I am entirely self-taught. I have never had anyone show me how to do anything. So the self-taught excuse is nothing but that.

 

[transatlantic]

Specifically hand planes and saws.

And I'm not using the self taught thing as an excuse, many people are self taught and are amazing at what they do. Others need a little help.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

 

[D_W]

I am also self taught. Everything. If you are wired to meet a standard, it's not frustration. The skills add to each other quickly, but trying to learn something in isolation from someone without understanding the skills needed is real frustration for me.