Precise and Imprecise Tools?

[Fitzroy]

On the idea of precise vs imprecise. 2lb Lump hammer vs 4oz pin hammer. I’d argue the pin hammer is more precise than the lump hammer, but would a £20 pin hammer be more precise than a £5 pin hammer?

Fitz.

 

[TFrench]

In my day job I use gilbow tinsnips. They're expensive compared to your flimsy aviation tinsnips but they're no longer a precision tool. The old sheffield steel ones are beautifully ground to shape, new ones are rough and ready - look like someone spent 2 minutes on a bench grinder with them. Last set I got I ordered 3 and sent 2 back as they were unusable. I think thats relevant? :lol:
Some people like spending money on fast cars, cigarettes, booze, gambling. Me, I buy nice tools. They won't make me a better craftsman but they are nice to use and unlike the **** and booze I've got something to show for it other than cancer!

 

[MikeG.]

I was under the impression that MikeG was trolling a bit, .......

That is seriously unfair.

 

[Jacob]

......
No way on earth you'd get a chunky Marples chisel or similar into those dovetail pins and they are 4mm 'cos I measured them :lol: - Rob

Well yes obviously. But you would get a non chunky say 1/8" marples or any old chinese chisel in there, if necessary just filing the bevel a touch.
The main thing with pin holes is to overcut slightly, then cleaning out the corners is easy.

 

[woodbloke66]

As to the matter of precision tools. The closest definition I could find was that of a precision instrument. The Cambridge Dictionary says it's a tool that can be controlled very accurately so that it produces very accurate results.
Out of the box, an inexpensive Stanley knock-off, will seldom produce accurate results.
So, I'd say that is an imprecise tool.
Can it be made to work? Maybe.

Can't find much wrong with that definition, but why are these precision instruments spendy as you suggested in the original post? Not trying to stir the pot or upset any apple carts etc but I'm interested to find a correlation between the two ideas...precision and expensive - Rob

 

[shed9]

I was under the impression that MikeG was trolling a bit, .......

That is seriously unfair.

If your (sic) finding the timber prone to tearing out.........

Did he mention that?

Therefore, why bring it up other than hop on your old hobby horse again? Every single planing thread........sheesh.

Less than 12 hours difference between the two statements. I get it, you have skills, knowledge and experience but so do others and often from similar and different perspectives; how hard is that to acknowledge and allow?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch& ... =789&dpr=1

How on earth did they manage without Veritas, LN etc, chisels and a diamond wheel on a Tormek?

 

[AndyT]

Don't forget the Aldi disc sander, Phil!

 

[shed9]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=riemenschneider+triptych&chips=q:riemenschneider+triptych,online_chips:tilman+riemenschneider&usg=AI4_-kTWc_icWoW9dkNe-s5GQ6hM04OyDw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRofTHxLjhAhXd6OAKHZklBXkQ4lYILigF&biw=1600&bih=789&dpr=1

How on earth did they manage without Veritas, LN etc, chisels and a diamond wheel on a Tormek?

It's all relevant in the context of the times, they would have had variants of precision and imprecision as well. The argument is that the two possibilities exist within the context of tools not that precise tools are not available in any given timeframe.

 

[MikeG.]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=riemenschneider+triptych&chips=q:riemenschneider+triptych,online_chips:tilman+riemenschneider&usg=AI4_-kTWc_icWoW9dkNe-s5GQ6hM04OyDw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRofTHxLjhAhXd6OAKHZklBXkQ4lYILigF&biw=1600&bih=789&dpr=1

How on earth did they manage without Veritas, LN etc, chisels and a diamond wheel on a Tormek?

Someone is going to tell me they had precise, rather than imprecise chisels. Or maybe it was the mallets which were especially precise.

 

[transatlantic]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=riemenschneider+triptych&chips=q:riemenschneider+triptych,online_chips:tilman+riemenschneider&usg=AI4_-kTWc_icWoW9dkNe-s5GQ6hM04OyDw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRofTHxLjhAhXd6OAKHZklBXkQ4lYILigF&biw=1600&bih=789&dpr=1

How on earth did they manage without Veritas, LN etc, chisels and a diamond wheel on a Tormek?

But they had Valyrian steel. :lol: 8)

"Valyrian steel is a form of metal that was forged in the days of the mighty Valyrian Freehold. When fashioned into bladed weapons, the steel can hold an especially keen edge, remaining sharp forever without the need for honing. "

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Someone is going to tell me they had precise, rather than imprecise chisels. Or maybe it was the mallets which were especially precise.

Or maybe they had precise hands and especially precise minds?

 

[MikeG.]

Someone is going to tell me they had precise, rather than imprecise chisels. Or maybe it was the mallets which were especially precise.

Or maybe they had precise hands and especially precise minds?

Exactly.

 

[dzj]

As to the matter of precision tools. The closest definition I could find was that of a precision instrument. The Cambridge Dictionary says it's a tool that can be controlled very accurately so that it produces very accurate results.
Out of the box, an inexpensive Stanley knock-off, will seldom produce accurate results.
So, I'd say that is an imprecise tool.
Can it be made to work? Maybe.

Can't find much wrong with that definition, but why are these precision instruments spendy as you suggested in the original post? Not trying to stir the pot or upset any apple carts etc but I'm interested to find a correlation between the two ideas...precision and expensive - Rob

As you note, it was a suggestion for beginners with little money to spend.
If they're lucky, they might find a decent refurbished plane that won't break the bank. (Prices have been going up on Ebay and elsewhere though.) Buying a new, premium tool is prohibitively expensive if you're on a budget. (Hence 'Precise hand tools are often also costly'.)
For someone starting out with no plane, no sharpening setup, no knowledge how to maintain tools...numbers add up (time also) and the hand tool option might not be the best solution.
Do you see anything controversial in what I'm saying?

 

[MikeG.]

........Do you see anything controversial in what I'm saying?

Apart from calling me a troll, you mean.

Yes, actually, my fundamental point stands. Firstly, we weren't talking about beginners, so that's a major moving of the goal posts. Put an expensive plane in the hands of a beginner and they'll get exactly the same results, or lack thereof, as they get with a standard Record/ Stanley. The spurious "out of the box" point again only applies to the first hour of use anyway, after which they'll be equally as non-plussed with sharpening and re-setting a £300 plane as a £30 plane. But this is all besides the point, which is that you claimed there was such a thing as a precise hand-tool (for some reason this now seems to be just planes, not handtools in general), and despite days of being asked to back it up, you've still got nothing to show that greater precision can be achieved with an expensive tool than with a standard tool. For the want of another accusation of trolling, I still haven't the first idea why you think some versions of hand tools are more precise than other versions.

 

[Doug B]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=riemenschneider+triptych&chips=q:riemenschneider+triptych,online_chips:tilman+riemenschneider&usg=AI4_-kTWc_icWoW9dkNe-s5GQ6hM04OyDw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRofTHxLjhAhXd6OAKHZklBXkQ4lYILigF&biw=1600&bih=789&dpr=1

How on earth did they manage without Veritas, LN etc, chisels and a diamond wheel on a Tormek?

Apart from the fact Lie Nielsen & Veritas don’t make carving gouges no doubt the craft people of that era would use the best tools they could find & afford.
Precision in the manufacture of gouges & chisels lies in the steel they are made from, quality steel costs a premium price & is reflected in the cost of the tool.
I have HSS & carbon steel gouges the later doesn’t hold its edge for as long as the HSS so when replacing old gouges I opt for HSS but it costs more, of the two neither is more precise in use its just the one suites my needs better so I’m happy to pay the additional cost.

 

[MikeG.]

...........Precision in the manufacture of gouges & chisels lies in the steel they are made from, quality steel costs a premium price & is reflected in the cost of the tool...........

With absolutely zero difference in the quality of the results achieved, Doug. Zero. As you point out, the benefit (the only benefit) is that the better steel holds an edge longer. That doesn't in any way match up to a claim of being "higher precision" (I know it wasn't your claim, but it is what we are talking about).

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I'd suggest precision is more about methods of work than the tools.

If tools were the limiting factor of precision, there would be no precise tools, because the precision of tool making would be limited to be no better than that of the tools used to make them. In practice, we can "bootstrap" the process and make tools capable of more precise work than the tools used to make them.

 

[MikeG.]

I'd suggest precision is more about methods of work than the tools.........

=D> Bingo.

 

[woodbloke66]

I'd suggest precision is more about methods of work than the tools.........

=D> Bingo.

So Mike, you'd like to be operated on by a surgeon who was capable of top drawer, precision work, but who only used mediocre, imprecise and clunky tools? :lol: :lol: Making a quick exit here......- Rob