Poor man's Joint Master?

[transatlantic]

This is cool! .. but it seems like it will only work when the blade is in absolute tip top condition? I'd be curious to see how well it works a few months down the line. What happens when the blade is a little dull? does it bind or jam half way through and you just make several strokes?

 

[Geordie Joe]

This is cool! .. but it seems like it will only work when the blade is in absolute tip top condition? I'd be curious to see how well it works a few months down the line. What happens when the blade is a little dull? does it bind or jam half way through and you just make several strokes?

I thought that too. There will be a limit to the thickness of the wood you are cutting, because the thicker the wood the higher the end of the saw will have to be. At some point that angle will become too steep for the saw to cut.

The solution I have in my head to to attach a spring to the board the saw is attached to, to either pull or push it up to it's highest height. Then you could have a depth stop, or height stop to set the height the saw will go to. That way if the wood is too thick then the saw will just go down as you push the wood across it, but it will still have the spring applying force to it so it will still cut the wood. Otherwise you will have to cut a little, raise the saw blade, cut a little more and raise the saw blade etc. etc.

I keep telling myself that it would me more bother to build than it would be worth, especially as I love sawing wood by hand. But I keep seeing those jigs for cutting box joints on a table saw on youtube, and I think this would be real good at that.

 

[Geordie Joe]

Great report. Why did you use a Japanese saw in your poor mans version? Wouldn't a western saw that you could resharpen work just as well? I can see why bridge city tools used a Japanese saw because they want to sell replacements and most people wanting a jog like this probably don't want the bother of resharpening a saw blade. But is there any other advantage of the Japanese saw over a western one?

You need to use a pull saw because that is what you are doing. You are pushing the wood, but it is upside down and having the same effect as pulling the saw through the wood.

That doesn't really make sense you could mount the saw blade either way around

I was hoping nobody would notice that post. I realised I was wrong a few minutes after writing it, just after it hit me that if I wanted to cut box joints with it then a wider kerf would be better.

 

[John Brown]

Surely there's less chance of buckling the blade if it's cutting on the pull stroke.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

The reason about the saw was because it occurred to me that it was only a pull saw because of its orientation and I thought a western saw with a more robust blade might actually fair better than a thin Japanese saw exactly because it was not being pulled. The work is pushed along the saw blade. Perhaps the thinner kerf of the Japanese saw allows this to work and that a western saw would create too much resistance. The joint master is justifiably expensive because of its enormous flexibility. It can present the wood at almost any angle or compound of angles and depth to the saw blade. I can see that this might be overkill for a lot of people who only really need a jig to accomplish one of the many things that the joint master can do.
I will continue to experiment and if all else fails I can place a request to be put on the waiting list
For a joint master. Not on any other waiting lists.

 

[Sportique]

But Gerard (with respect) the wood is pushed and the blade is stationary - that effectively means that the saw is pulled through the wood (or have I missed something???) :shock: (hammer)

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

Where is the law about turning a saw around? A Japanese saw is pulled only because it is thin and would buckle if pushed. A western saw can be pushed because it thicker and has a reinforced spine. So if you turn the Western saw around you can use it like a pull saw. Incidentally, thanks for the respect.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

:roll: Nothing like a bit of experimentation to discover the truth.
I am finding there is a lot more resistance from the Western saw blade. I think the wider kerf and thicker blade are the culprits. The original jointmaster in action appears to offer very little resistance. No need to reinvent the wheel here. I am still more than interested in buying the real thing. I am building a far less versatile version for a particular project. I thought that the drum sander was tricky but it was a lot easier than this :roll:

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

I am getting nearer to my goal but I fear I have further to go than I imagine. The more I work on this the more I realise why this is not a missed career opportunity.

I bought a couple of drawer runners from a scrap merchant, along with an aluminium sheet which I cut in half and drill and tapped so that I could fix it to the drawer runners. Now all I need to do is test my ideas for a fixed blade. I have fixed the runners to a board for the sake of simplicity. I will cut a hole in the middle for the sawdust to fall through when I have worked out how to fix the saw in position.
I have been trying to get a jointmaster second hand but most people seem to be unable to part with them.

And then late last night I was reading John's blog on the Bridge City Tools website and I could not believe my eyes.
I don't really want to spoil the surprise for you all so I suggest you read it for yourselves. http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/201 ... #more-9324
After you have read it I am sure it will become clear why I have named the photographs in the way I have.

I am going to finish what I have started but I won't be using it for too long.

 

[transatlantic]

I am getting nearer to my goal but I fear I have further to go than I imagine. The more I work on this the more I realise why this is not a missed career opportunity.
I bought a couple of drawer runners from a scrap merchant, along with an aluminium sheet which I cut in half and drill and tapped so that I could fix it to the drawer runners. Now all I need to do is test my ideas for a fixed blade. I have fixed the runners to a board for the sake of simplicity. I will cut a hole in the middle for the sawdust to fall through when I have worked out how to fix the saw in position.
I have been trying to get a jointmaster second hand but most people seem to be unable to part with them.

And then late last night I was reading John's blog on the Bridge City Tools website and I could not believe my eyes.
I don't really want to spoil the surprise for you all so I suggest you read it for yourselves. http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/201 ... #more-9324
After you have read it I am sure it will become clear why I have named the photographs in the way I have.

I am going to finish what I have started but I won't be using it for too long.

That is good news! so there will be the american version, the knock off chinese version AND the official chinese version. They mention they think the official chinese version will be half that of the american version, so I guess thats going to be around the £700 mark. Still a substanial amount of money.

Curious to see the knock off version though

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

No doubt the knock version will still be better than mine. But I will be buying the official Chinese version. No one is going to put time into research if we all just buy knock offs. Bridge City Tools is a small firm, that is more interested in making top end tools than they are about making large sums of money. £700 seems like a lot of money until you start to try and build an inferior version yourself. Perhaps they brought it on themselves with their chopstick maker.

 

[custard]

last night I was reading John's blog on the Bridge City Tools website and I could not believe my eyes.
I don't really want to spoil the surprise for you all so I suggest you read it for yourselves. http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/201 ... #more-9324

That's a pretty original, not to say weird, business plan!

So UK (or NAFTA Mexican) customers will have a choice between US manufactured tools and half price Chinese manufactured tools, both of which according to Bridge City are made to identical standards. However US customers won't have that choice, they will only be able to buy the full priced US manufactured version. Have I read that right?

I wonder how US customers will react to that news? And, what's to prevent a UK buyer (or a Mexican NAFTA buyer) re-selling the cheaper Chinese version in the US at a small mark up? As I understand it under US trade law once a buyer has bought something they are at complete liberty to re-sell it to whoever they want for whatever price at relatively few restrictions.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

It seems a bit weird at first, but what choice do they have. I think this attempt to safeguard American jobs through selling American made tools to American buyers is a good thing. Bridge City Tools have every right to protect their intellectual property but as the cost of doing so is prohibitive I think they have found the best solution availalble to them. I am sure that there will be all sorts of gray imports going on. But between private buyers and so it will be a drop in the ocean. Anyone turning it into a business will be spotted quickly enough. If the US raise import tariffs for Chinese made goods this will make them less attractive.

In the meantime I plodded on

I have now discovered really how tricky this is to engineer. I have a tiny bit of side to side wobble in my drawer runners which is not great. My joint apprentice has a non adjustable 90 degree keel and I have to undo bolts to lower and raise the blade. I stripped most of the teeth from a crosscut blade in two swipes, so I have switch to a rip blade which seems to be better.
Now more than ever I can't wait for the real thing to become available.

 

[Geordie Joe]

I stripped most of the teeth from a crosscut blade in two swipes, so I have switch to a rip blade which seems to be better.

Do know why it happened? Wood too hard, too thick, blade angle too steep?

Now more than ever I can't wait for the real thing to become available.

Even £700 is too much for me, but if I had the money I would buy one too, and that's just from seeing the videos and a quick trail of my own. Not that it was much of a trial, I just put a saw blade between two blocks of wood and put them in a vice. I was hooked after I ran the first bit of wood over it!

 

[skipdiver]

Am i the only one who thinks that it looks scarier than a tablesaw? One pass with your finger in the wrong place doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Geordie Joe]

Am i the only one who thinks that it looks scarier than a tablesaw? One pass with your finger in the wrong place doesn't bear thinking about.

Why!!!!! One pass with your finger in the wrong place on a table saw and it will be worse. There are many things in this world that can cut you badly, but they are used every day by people who have learned to keep their fingers out of the way.

I blame the internet, it has created a generation who think they are somehow better people if they scream "risk" at everything they see.

 

[skipdiver]

Am i the only one who thinks that it looks scarier than a tablesaw? One pass with your finger in the wrong place doesn't bear thinking about.

Why!!!!! One pass with your finger in the wrong place on a table saw and it will be worse. There are many things in this world that can cut you badly, but they are used every day by people who have learned to keep their fingers out of the way.

I blame the internet, it has created a generation who think they are somehow better people if they scream "risk" at everything they see.

I've been using machinery for over 40 years and still have all my fingers thanks. It was merely an observation and i don't think i'm better than anyone.

 

[Rorschach]

It's the pushing force you have to put behind it. I don't have to push hard into a table or bandsaw, makes me more squeamish.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

Blade stripping issues.

As I suspected this tool is more complicated to get right than first meets the eye.
I have been able to get it to do what I wanted it for but I have now sucessfully stripped 3 impulse hardened Japanese saw blades of all their teeth. Nice scrapers now #-o . I have tried the lowest possible pitch. From almost nothing to 5 millimetres protruding. I thought it was because I was cutting Holly at first. But then the blade sailed through Pear and the teeth were stripped by a piece of not particulary hard Maple. Perhaps they were already fatigued by that point.

Is a hacksaw blade is a better option? It is thicker which might be a problem for the resistance. I will give that a ago. In the meantime perhaps someone might have an idea where I am going wrong?

I really can't wait for the Chinese licensed version now.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

I can hardly believe it but there is too much kerf in a hacksaw blade. Doesn't work very well at all.