Poor cancer detection in the UK

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flanajb

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I wanted to post this as it is close to my heart and there must be so many others who have sufferedf from this.

In 2002 my Father who had been a smoker went to the doctor about being very breathless. In the end they sent my Dad for a scan and although there was a shadow on his lung they sent him away telling him it was most likely a TB scar. No wanting to labour the point, but 9 months later he went back and in the end he was diagnosed with therminal lung cancer and died just under 2 years later.

The reason I am posting is that my Wife just told me some news about a friend of her Mum's who recently had a brain tumour, he too became breathless and went to see a GP at the same practice. After consultation they told him that he most likely had pleurisy and sent him away. 6 months down the line they finally do a scan as things are no better and he too has been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer.

I am sure you all know that lung cancer is very aggresive and most people do not survive 1 year.

I am really angry at how 2 people have been failed by our so called health system. In my eyes this is negligence and needs to be flagged up ?
 
My neighbour came back from a med cruise complaining of severe back pain, her symptoms where much the same as I had suffered in 2007 I advised her husband to go to her doctor demand a MRI scan, he did but doctor gave her pain killers, these did no good so he gave her different pain killers, she tried accupuncture, still she suffered severe back pain.
Her eyesight started to deteriorate her husband took her to optician who spotted some abnormalities behind her eye, she was rushed to hospital and died several weeks later, cancer in the spine, lungs neck and a tumor in her brain.
She was 61 a very active person and worked all her life as a nurse, her treatment by her GP it made me very angry.
I doubt if she would have lived much longer than she did if the spinal cancer had been detected earlier but the pain and suffering both she and her husband went through was very wrong.
My father was diagnosed with lung cancer in 1976 after well over 2 years of tests, he had an operation to remove the cancer and died in 1986 as the cancer as returned, I really thought the medical profession had learned to spot this horrible illness, but obviously not.
 
DIY Stew":6cso2mlh said:
My neighbour came back from a med cruise complaining of severe back pain, her symptoms where much the same as I had suffered in 2007 I advised her husband to go to her doctor demand a MRI scan, he did but doctor gave her pain killers, these did no good so he gave her different pain killers, she tried accupuncture, still she suffered severe back pain.
Her eyesight started to deteriorate her husband took her to optician who spotted some abnormalities behind her eye, she was rushed to hospital and died several weeks later, cancer in the spine, lungs neck and a tumor in her brain.
She was 61 a very active person and worked all her life as a nurse, her treatment by her GP it made me very angry.
I doubt if she would have lived much longer than she did if the spinal cancer had been detected earlier but the pain and suffering both she and her husband went through was very wrong.
My father was diagnosed with lung cancer in 1976 after well over 2 years of tests, he had an operation to remove the cancer and died in 1986 as the cancer as returned, I really thought the medical profession had learned to spot this horrible illness, but obviously not.
It is appalling that this is still happening now. Like you say, unless you basically say to your GP "send me for a scan or I am not leaving this building", they will try and send you away with some meds. No wonder we have such poor cancer rates compared with other countries
 
My father went to hospital feeling very poorly (unusual for him even to go to a doctor).
They gave him an ECG and sent him home saying it was probably flu, and to go to his GP if he didn't feel better in a couple of days. He died that night of an aneurism in his aorta, which had clearly been leaking and making him feel poorly. Not good.

Si.
 
My father suffered from lower back pain for years, his GP reckoned it was sciatica and gave him pain killers and told him to rest when/if if got too bad. Being from the age of believing that the doctor knew best he did this and suffered in silence for a long long time.
His eyesight started to deteriorate and he went to see his optician who sugested that he should go to his GP and ask for a blood test. The test showed up some problems and further tests and scans reveled that one of his kidneys was competley silted up and the other one was almost as bad, so much so that dialysis would be useless. He was given the news two weeks before Christmas. He died on Valentines day
This was 20 years ago, things have improved over the years but mistakes still happen.

Dex
 
While i can sympathise with the sad stories here, at the end of the day it is down to each and everyone of us to make sure that we get the right treatment and not to take at face value what your GP says...or if you are unhappy with your GP then change then or move surgery.

I have to say that my local doctor's surgery is extremely good and have always referred me where necessary.
 
RogerS":2hdt3jj1 said:
While i can sympathise with the sad stories here, at the end of the day it is down to each and everyone of us to make sure that we get the right treatment and not to take at face value what your GP says...or if you are unhappy with your GP then change then or move surgery.


But how are you to know that your doctor's talking ****? If I go to the doctor with a problem, I take at face value the advice I am given. I'm no medical expert, and I believe that the doctor has vastly more experience/training than I.

We go to the doctor to get the right diagnosis/treatment, not to tell the doctor what the diagnosis/treatment is.
 
All the money that has been spent in the search for a treatment/cure or just early diagnosis, has it done any good? I speak as one who has lost someone to it and I donate regularly because of that but, it doesn't appear to me that any real progress has been made. Am I wrong?
 
Karl":1ux1iegx said:
RogerS":1ux1iegx said:
While i can sympathise with the sad stories here, at the end of the day it is down to each and everyone of us to make sure that we get the right treatment and not to take at face value what your GP says...or if you are unhappy with your GP then change then or move surgery.


But how are you to know that your doctor's talking ****? .....

Guess it comes down to experience in the end and a questioning mind. I never take anything at face value.
 
But how are you to know that your doctor's talking ****? .....

Guess it comes down to experience in the end and a questioning mind. I never take anything at face value.

I'd agree, experience has taught me never to take one opinion as being necessarily correct, regardless of who it comes from.
 
studders":34ewi4x7 said:
But how are you to know that your doctor's talking ****? .....

Guess it comes down to experience in the end and a questioning mind. I never take anything at face value.

I'd agree, experience has taught me never to take one opinion as being necessarily correct, regardless of who it comes from.

Unless it's Jacob :D
 
RogerS":kxfbn2cl said:
studders":kxfbn2cl said:
But how are you to know that your doctor's talking ****? .....

Guess it comes down to experience in the end and a questioning mind. I never take anything at face value.

I'd agree, experience has taught me never to take one opinion as being necessarily correct, regardless of who it comes from.

Unless it's Jacob :D

That's a Cracker.

:D
 
After several experiences similar to ones described, it is my opinion that, when treating "Older" people, the attitude of the medical profession in this country is simple; fob them off for as long as possible and hope they die before any really expensive treatment is necessary.
 
When I was a nurse twenty years ago, we had a ward under two consultants, on one side of the ward under Mr A you were not for re-sus if you were over 75, on the other side under Mr B it was 65, natuarlly we ignored Mr B.

The other problem is that doctors are inundated by the worried well who report just the sort of basic symtoms decribed, and want to go home with a pill perscription, and they won't go untill they have had their demands met either. I don't expect things have changed that much, but it always was balancing the likelyhood of basic symtoms being just that, or evidence of something more serious. If doctors sent every headache, backpain, breathless cough for scanning with a 90% negative return people would be up in arms abiut the waste of resources, only the 10% would be delighted. Its a no win situation.

G
 
t8hants":28vc6pby said:
When I was a nurse twenty years ago, we had a ward under two consultants, on one side of the ward under Mr A you were not for re-sus if you were over 75, on the other side under Mr B it was 65, natuarlly we ignored Mr B.

The other problem is that doctors are inundated by the worried well who report just the sort of basic symtoms decribed, and want to go home with a pill perscription, and they won't go untill they have had their demands met either. I don't expect things have changed that much, but it always was balancing the likelyhood of basic symtoms being just that, or evidence of something more serious. If doctors sent every headache, backpain, breathless cough for scanning with a 90% negative return people would be up in arms abiut the waste of resources, only the 10% would be delighted. Its a no win situation.

G


My Mother in law has a lump on her neck they eventually examined this told her to wait and wait in the end they came back and she has a cancer that has never been seen before so they contacted the US to see if they had ever seen this cancer before they did not know do she has to go through the chemo and the other treatments telling her it might never work but at least it might give a few more months to live rather than doing nothing.
Now have to see her and the rest of the family going through hell for which she might die anyway.
Hopefully she will live and they have killed the lot off.
Tim
 
I can but agree about 'the best health service in the world'

In the UK I was fobbed off for years with pills. Had to scream blue murder to get a radiation operation that didn't work. It wasn't until I came to France that I found out how it should be done. The attitude here is 'make sure'. I was straight into hospital, had an MRI, the next morning I was having brain surgery.

The NHS needs a good shake up. Problem is, I suspect its as much about money and targets as it is about 'don't care'
 
This is a long post, for which I apologise, but I think this side of the story is rarely heard...

gus3049":2q2afdvv said:
The NHS needs a good shake up. Problem is, I suspect its as much about money and targets as it is about 'don't care'

If the public knew how true that is, politicians would ALL be swinging from lamp posts.

I know one GP extremely well (have done for nigh on 31 years). Her practice is inner-city, predominantly immigrant, and very high on the deprivation index of same. Targets are the bane of her life, as is a meddlesome, politically-driven Primary Care Trust (PCT).

She has the 'wrong' sort of patients, so for three years prior to this one she's had a pay freeze. This time it's a pay cut (can't do that to the staff, as they have NHS-determined rates). She's also doing substantially more hours (nominally 3/4 time, actual hours about 40/week over 4 or 5 days depending on clinic patterns).

This is because they can't afford another salaried GP, and, when one partner recently retired, they had no applications for the salaried (i.e. income-protected) job. Yup, that's zero, zilch, nada, none at all. Nor can they recruit a Nurse Practitioner, and at least one other local health centre has had similar problems. Neither can recruit additional GPs, as apparently nobody wants to work there.

If you think that's surprising, in view of the megabucks GPs are paid, read on...

Many simple things about the NHS are stupidly broken: discharge letters from hospitals, containing the details of treatment and instructions for follow-up care, arrive as physical paper letters: my daughter has a Saturday job scanning them into the practice system! The doctors still can't get at all the test results from all the local hospitals on-line: most of them sometimes, some not at all. The systems linking the NHS together are terrible, and hospitals' own records are inconsistent, and often chaotic (they don't tell you that in the clinics or the X-ray departments!).

The 'choose and book' system for arranging appointments is a disaster. Hospitals block-out large amounts of clinic time, and the metrics are such that, once you're on a waiting list, you are already counted as 'dealt with' (or something like that), and actually not on any waiting list for statistical not-meeting-our-targets measurement purposes. Bizzarre, dishonest, and wholly true.

I'm in IT (sort-of). All the GPs in this area have their IT provided under 'contract' from their PCT. The service standard is truly pitiful. In the past few years they have gone for days at a time without working computer systems in the practice. Given earlier NHS campaigns for 'paperless' surgeries, imagine the 'fun' that causes.

Patients could be forgiven for not understanding the reasons and being cross (hell, the doctors don't understand the reasons!), but that does nothing to help GP's stress levels, nor fix the problems. If my company served our commercial clients the same way, we wouldn't be in business any more. The contract is effectively a monopoly - GPs pay, but have no real say in the service level provided. For those in the know, XML and PGP encryption (which would probably sort out the hospital connection in short order) might as well be the Enigma codes.

Whoever runs the NHS' IT departments certainly doesn't do so in the patients' interest.

[Personal disclosure: we'd like to bid for local IT support contracts. We already have several in private healthcare and our customers are, generally speaking, delighted with us. We can't get a foot in the general practice door though, as the PCT IT structure is incestuous, defensive, and behind the 'firewall' of public sector commissioning, meaning in practice small businesses can't get anywhere near it.]

Regarding the PCT's other management gaffes, there are endless anecdotes about their meddlesome ways. The most recent spectacular example of waste locally was replacing all the health centre carpets (the place is only about 5 years old!) with lino, as carpets are 'unhygenic' in consulting rooms. The facts that, (a) it cost a fortune, (b) the patients feel much less stressed in a room with carpets (wot, really?), (c) the carpets didn't need replacing, and (d) the GPs protested (in writing) and were ignored, tells you everything you need to know about the PCT's priorities.

Now the coalition, in essence, wants to add financial responsibility for hospitals (through 'commissioning') to GPs' already overloaded job description. Why? Follow the money trail:

GPs have already been a convenient 'aunt Sally' for politicians. They got a half-decent income settlement from Blair's last administration that went some way towards stopping the brain-drain. Ever since, successive governments have tried to claw it back, labelling GPs as 'greedy' and money-grabbing.

Chance would be a fine thing! There must be greedy, very wealthy GPs somewhere, but I've never met one. Her accountant takes home far more than she does, as do the lawyers they so often have to employ these days (employment tribunals, patient complaints and so on. They'll need one on the staff eventually!). Don't even ask about management in the local PCT (there's a surprise!) -- oddly, they don't have any trouble recruiting.

If you don't want clever, effective doctors, don't pay 'em. The existing ones are obviously greedy and a bit thick, but don't worry, they're beginning to take the hint...

She already has to manage her imposed and artificial drug 'budget' (need an expensive drug? Fergeddit!), and will shortly also be funding some care delivery such as the treatment room staff. The budget transfer from the PCT for that function is estimated at 40% less than the PCT spends on it now. Go figure that one!

Nominally, the practice operates commercially as contractors to the NHS. In reality it's a fantasy world of statistical targets (with financial penalties, etc.), 'funny money' (part-subsidised, no-choice services from the PCT, such as the dreadful IT), ordinary partnership accounts (for the Revenue), odd things like NHS pensions provision and staffing rules, pay grades, and so on.

It's contract service provision, but not as we humans know it, Jim. The commercial world of TAC (total absorption costing), cost centres, budgeting and so on, doesn't apply. It's so muddled, I doubt anyone could measure efficiency in any meaningful way, nor say where money is being wasted (except perhaps the carpet suppliers!).

She's already beginning to talk wistfully about early retirement, or a career change.

Given that reform of the NHS is obviously a priority. The question, for me, is this: Do you want your GP worrying about their nominal hospital budget when they should be finding your tumour, or would you rather the system was run properly in the first place?

Don't blame the doctors for being human. They're struggling to be professional in the face of a bl**dy huge, overbearing, expensive and self-serving bureaucracy, that sits like a fat leech on the back of the NHS where it can't be touched. "No cuts to front-line services" is code for "We'll dump the blame on the one group of professionals who can't/won't fight back".

The person I know very well prides herself on spotting odd, life-threatening and difficult to diagnose things. She has twice had people drop dead in front of her whilst at work (and actually saved them through CPR - don't think it's like 'Casualty'). She spends hours listening to people's problems, and visits patients in her free time, presumably because she cares. But she shops at Asda and can't afford to replace the 9-year-old car.

She tells me she didn't qualify as a doctor to fight bureaucrats about the carpet in her room, nor to have to log onto the PCT system from home to stay on top of bureaucratic emails (no time in the surgery).

But she's not superwoman either.

If you want it fixed, go deal with the politicians that caused the mess in the first place. Someone actually voted for Andrew Lansley, but I wonder how many of his constituents actually checked him out first, to find out what he was competent at, and how good he'd be in government.

The one thing about the present generation of politicians is that it's their job. They do care if they lose it, because they're otherwise largely unemployable. So we do have leverage, if we use it properly.

Other countries view MRI scans as cost-effective (i.e. cheap) diagnosis tools. Here, although we actually invented the things, we ration MRI time, and rely on charities to supply the machines. It's beyond ridicule.

You can't blame GPs for this, but you might, just, fix the people causing the problem in the first place, namely the incompetent and self-serving politicians.

Rant over. Sorry for taking up your time.

E.
 
Not in the least bit surprised. Everything here arrives on my Doctors PC direct from the hospital system. He knows exactly what is happening.

The system is expensive, we pay more here than in the UK. Rather that than what you have there now!! I begin to think that money really is the root of all evil. That makes me a saint.

I thought that France was a bureaucratic nightmare until I get here.
 
I'm rebuilding an elderly motor bike, anything odd about it I can take it apart and check.
My GP can't do that to me so I sympathise with his difficulty.
Having said that I went to see him, and after various non effective treatments i asked for a PSA test.
'You haven't got prostate cancer Roy!'
Two tests later and I'm faced with the fact that I have!
Doctors are human and can be wrong, if necessary, argue! No one is infallible!

Roy.
 

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