Pocket Hole Kits & Screws

[Penny]

I've been looking at Pocket Hole kits and, frankly, I'm stunned. Why are they so expensive? Even a basic Kreg kit (without clamps) is upwards of £30.00. And screws are really expensive. Why?

Are they worth the money? Which is the best value kit based on usability, price and longevity?

 

[Wuffles]

Honestly, get the kreg portable one, about £15 from most auction sites and it'll work fine with any clamp you care to try - although the krek automaxx clamps are awesome with this, and cost a few bob.

Then you can see how useful they are, and if you wanted something larger you're not really duplicating the tool as the kreg portable one is excellent for on the spot repairs.

 

[ED65]

I've been looking at Pocket Hole kits and, frankly, I'm stunned. Why are they so expensive? Even a basic Kreg kit (without clamps) is upwards of £30.00.

There are a few cheaper pocket-screw jigs sold by some competitors to Kreg and as you might guess some even cheaper Chinese versions/copies/knock-offs, but none of them can compete on price to one you make yourself. One or two evening's work and you can build yourself a perfectly serviceable one, the simplest from just one piece of scrap wood. More elaborate versions have linings to make them more durable, commercial ones use steel but that's harder to locate and copper water pipe can last for years.

After putting it off for much too long I just completed my first one as part of my current drive to work through my rountoit list, which was getting much too long.

And screws are really expensive. Why?

Much the same reason the jigs are pricey in the first place, but selling to a locked-in market nearly always means you pay through the nose for something.

You could easily substitute something else but most don't think in this way unless they have a financial incentive. And most people who can't or won't afford the Kreg screws wouldn't have bought one of their jigs in the first place

Here's the simplest design I've seen:

 

[Roughcut]

The decent pocket hole jigs do at first appear expensive.
However when considering value for money for something that works every time you get it out of the box, doesn't develop niggly faults or break and doesn't lead to lost time or frustration then surely it's worth the money?
For me the Kreg K4 I have has been faultless and in my opinion worth every penny because......it just works!

 

[pike]

Penny, as wuffles says you could just get the little 15 quid thing and screws. That's what I've done. If I really need to speed up the operation I can get one of the bigger jigs, but the little one is handy for on the spot repairs to existing furniture.

The screws being the price they are I think is a rip off frankly, but you're paying for a popular brand system which should just work and they ask what they can get for it. You can search these forums I think and find some people use cheaper screws.

 

[Chrispy]

I've found a low cost alternative to the rip-off screws the only difference is that they are plain pozi drive not the square drive.

 

[Monkey Mark]

I've found a low cost alternative to the rip-off screws the only difference is that they are plain pozi drive not the square drive.

Would you like to share a link to them?

 

[Wuffles]

Any pan head screw will do the job, coarse for softwood and fine for hardwood, I think. Check the lengths for the material you are planning to use.

I use the ones from Axminster as they're torx and I have long torx driver heads.

 

[ED65]

Any pan head screw will do the job

Precisely. Possibly even cheaper you can use a plain wood screw with a washer. This looks ugly as sin if you can see it but it does exactly the same job.

 

[Eric The Viking]

The devil is in the detail. If you're not stressing the joint much, frankly it doesn't matter and anything will do, but if it has to take significant load, then everything about the system matters:

- which screws are used (length, thickness and thread type - has to match the stock really),
- exact positions of hole and screw in both pieces of the joint, etc.
- accuracy of hole (which must have a squared-off bottom, NOT conical)

Then there is repeatability - how quickly can you make a lot of joints, and how consistently?

I have no doubt you can make joints with any of the jigs on offer, including home made ones, but if you need strong joints, look at Kreg and UJK in particular.

Kreg put in the original hard work to make sure their system works properly. Their Robertson screws (square-drive) have the right threads, lengths and heads, and wonderfully, they don't fall off the screwdriver!

Note that the Robertson head is NOT proprietary to Kreg. Robertson is a Canadian company that specialises in fastenings, mainly for aerospace. Their design is either patented or copyrighted, and it's been around since WWII.

You don't need Robertson screws - they're just the best available for the task. You can use anything with a flanged head (i.e. wide and flat at the back). You will need a proper drill - one that cuts a hole with a squared bottom, and a centred pilot hole.

One reason (I'm guessing) why Kreg chose Robertson, is that the screws stay aligned on the driver really well, so there's no danger of missing the pilot hole and starting a screw squiffy (I've done this using cheap Pozi- dome-headed screws in softwood, in a rush). That will ruin your day.

I'm sure you can get by with the cheap stuff, but everything about the Kreg system just works well. I'm glad I have mine. There are some keen prices on Amazon at the moment, including mixed boxes of Kreg screws (you'll get much better prices elsewhere but it's a starter kit).

 

[Lons]

I'd echo the other comments and am happy with my Kreg K4 though I don't like the prices of Kreg screws. I don't use hundreds though so I guess horses for courses.

 

[Chrispy]

I've found a low cost alternative to the rip-off screws the only difference is that they are plain pozi drive not the square drive.

Would you like to share a link to them?

Yes I use the Hafele combi screws £5.90 per 1000 (+vat)

 

[Monkey Mark]

I've found a low cost alternative to the rip-off screws the only difference is that they are plain pozi drive not the square drive.

Would you like to share a link to them?

Yes I use the Hafele combi screws £5.90 per 1000 (+vat)

Sorry, where do you get them from? Never seen them that cheap.

 

[Chrispy]

Sorry, where do you get them from? Never seen them that cheap.

PM sent.

 

[ED65]

The devil is in the detail. If you're not stressing the joint much, frankly it doesn't matter and anything will do, but if it has to take significant load, then everything about the system matters:

- which screws are used (length, thickness and thread type - has to match the stock really),
- exact positions of hole and screw in both pieces of the joint, etc.
- accuracy of hole (which must have a squared-off bottom, NOT conical)

The devil can be in the details but not quite as you're intimating here. All of the above can be subject to variation and still result in perfectly sound joints (not saying they can be arbitrary, just that they don't have to be done just one way). It is only in relation to commercial jigs and the matched screws (if any) that these actually matter taken all together.

The square-bottom hole thing probably is the least critical, it's only desirable if you use a pan-head screws but clearly not if you use a regular wood screws But if you think about the way a panhead would pinch the 'shoulders' of a conical end to the hole there's actually no reason it must be flat, any more than a countersunk screw must go into a countersunk hole to work properly. Particularly not in a counterbore where nobody can see them.

 

[Eric The Viking]

The square-bottom hole thing probably is the least critical, it's only desirable if you use a pan-head screws but clearly not if you use a regular wood screws

The point is that a countersunk screw pushes sideways as well as lengthways. Pocket holes are often in endgrain or man made boards. So it's fine if you want it to pull through or punch out sideways but it won't make a very strong joint.

A flat-headed screw in a flat hole only pulls on its axis. And it leaves you the maximum amount of wood fibre underneath the head to pull into.

As for washers, I'm sure that will work, but it's a lot of fuss when there is a simpler solution.

Sorry, but I disagree.

 

[ED65]

The point is that a countersunk screw pushes sideways as well as lengthways. Pocket holes are often in endgrain or man made boards. So it's fine if you want it to pull through or punch out sideways but it won't make a very strong joint.

Okay fair point. Although I doubt the effect is pronounced enough to cause an issue in the majority of cases, granted, it could in some.

As for washers, I'm sure that will work, but it's a lot of fuss when there is a simpler solution.

You place the washer in the hole before inserting the screw and driving... OMG the extra tedium :shock:
:mrgreen:

On a serious note, for production work this could easily be seen not to be viable. But for the backyard-shed builder or DIY enthusiast it's fair to say there's no extra effort worth noting. And it could work out to be 25% to 30% of the cost of Kreg screws.

 

[Eric The Viking]

The point is that a countersunk screw pushes sideways as well as lengthways. Pocket holes are often in endgrain or man made boards. So it's fine if you want it to pull through or punch out sideways but it won't make a very strong joint.

Okay fair point. Although I doubt the effect is pronounced enough to cause an issue in the majority of cases, granted, it could in some.

As for washers, I'm sure that will work, but it's a lot of fuss when there is a simpler solution.

You place the washer in the hole before inserting the screw and driving... OMG the extra tedium :shock:
:mrgreen:

On a serious note, for production work this could easily be seen not to be viable. But for the backyard-shed builder or DIY enthusiast it's fair to say there's no extra effort worth noting. And it could work out to be 25% to 30% of the cost of Kreg screws.

I'll happily admit to being an amateur. But with fasteners of all sorts, I learned a long time ago that "cheap" often equals "trouble". You only have to strip or snap the heads off a couple of cheap screws in difficult circumstances to instantly eliminate any saving you might make.

Dropping it into the hole first works if the hole is vertical (and downwards). Of course you can put the washer on the screw for upwards, but sideways it's 'fun' of the worst sort.

I had a big DIY project recently, involving a lot of floor repair, and I tried a range of screws from different manufacturers. There were some, nominally Pozi, that bore no resemblance to the spec, apart from having a cross in the head. The screws chewed, the drivers chewed (I only ever use diamond coated drivers, for the same reasons), it was a disaster. They were "premium" screws from a mainstream and popular manufacturer that people swear by.

Those screws wouldn't sit snugly on the driver either, even with a magnetic holder. That's my point about the washers - sideways you;ll be messing about all day, stopping the washer falling off or falling over at the end of the hole, the screw falling off the driver, etc.

Then there's the matter of the shank: having no thread and a thin shank is important for the joint to pull up properly. Short screws with un-threaded shanks are hard to find, and rarely with the narrow shank that's needed, and nowadays VERY rarely with dome head or cheese head (or similar), as the assumption is that people want the thread to the shoulder.

It's not impossible, as you say, but it's like so many things in woodwork and other crafts: you can do stuff at very low cost, but the price you pay is hidden. For pocket holes, the Robertson head isn't essential, obviously, but it is the best there is, by far. More importantly, having the design of the screw - shape, length, thread pitch, etc. - spot on is what turns pocket holes from being a gimmick into an easy and reliable method.

I use recycled wood, secondhand equipment, planes from eBay, I made my own bench and I sharpen my own drill bits (sometimes). I'm not one of those 'cost no object' amateurs. But I know when it's important to buy quality, or have a torrid time doing something.

I can see, and appreciate, where you're coming from, but we obviously differ on this one.

E.

 

[morfa]

I have the small Kreg R3 jig and used it to build all my kitchen cabinets. It's excellent quality and I'd highly recommend it. I use the kreg screws and while they are a bit more expensive, they work perfectly with the system. You're unlikely to use that many screws (unless you're a tradesman) that it'll be that expensive.

 

[ED65]

I can see, and appreciate, where you're coming from, but we obviously differ on this one.

ccasion5:

Just on using screws with threads that reach to the head, obviously not suitable for a Kreg hole but again taken care of automatically if you're drilling holes to suit your fasteners, so with a suitable clearance hole.

Shocking about those non-spec screws! Far too much of that.