PM-V11 or A2 blades.

[pgrbff]

I have recently bought a couple of Veritas block planes with PM-V11 blades. I have no problem sharpening them once prepared but I was curious about the A2 and 01 blades. The price difference isn't that great but would I be better off with one of the other blades?
The PM-V11 was actually cheaper from the supplier I used.

 

[deema]

It’s all personal preferences, I personally chose A2 for ease of quick sharpening and knowing tool steel, for me PMV wasn’t a good choice.

 

[pgrbff]

It’s all personal preferences, I personally chose A2 for ease of quick sharpening and knowing tool steel, for me PMV wasn’t a good choice.

I find once the bevel is established and the back flat it really doesn't take me long to resharpen. I am of course assuming that the length of time needed to re-sharpen is the issue.
I really hate sharpening so the longer between sharpening the better.

 

[johnnyb]

I think the common opinion in favour of simple steels( I'm thinking water hardening but o1 is ok) and a2 is you've gotta razor it up at some time. so make it easier(if a bit more often)
the only real advantage I find to a2 is the chrome content stops corrosion. simple high carbon steels can rust just doing nothing. thought pmv was a wonder metal.

 

[--Tom--]

What are you hoping to get from a different steel? Or put another way, what is the current blade struggling with?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I have recently bought a couple of Veritas block planes with PM-V11 blades. I have no problem sharpening them once prepared but I was curious about the A2 and 01 blades. The price difference isn't that great but would I be better off with one of the other blades?
The PM-V11 was actually cheaper from the supplier I used.

I would plump for PM-V11 every time. A2 is okay. If you have it, just use it. These is no real downside. It is just that PM-V11 hones more easily and has finer grain in its composition. The latter means that there is one can take the edge to a finer level of grit. PM-V11 also will outlast A2 by 50%.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[pgrbff]

What are you hoping to get from a different steel? Or put another way, what is the current blade struggling with?

So far I'm happy with the PM-V11. But if I were to buy another plane I'd like to know if there might be benefits associated with the alternatives.

 

[tibi]

As I have always used only O1 steel, my only contribution to this thread is, that David W was not on the forums since the 1st of January. Maybe a new year's resolution. I miss him.

 

[Doug B]

I would plump for PM-V11 every time. A2 is okay. If you have it, just use it. These is no real downside. It is just that PM-V11 hones more easily and has finer grain in its composition. The latter means that there is one can take the edge to a finer level of grit. PM-V11 also will outlast A2 by 50%.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think Derek sums it up well, I have O1, A2 & PM-V11 plane blades they all work well doing there intended job but if I had to choose one it would be thePM-V11 for the reasons he states.

 

[pgrbff]

As I have always used only O1 steel, my only contribution to this thread is, that David W was not on the forums since the 1st of January. Maybe a new year's resolution. I miss him.

I seem to remember him saying he wouldn't maybe have some much time to contribute.

 

[Trafalgar]

If that's what came with the planes use it. Same advice if the planes were supplied with A2, plain high carbon, 1970s-era admixture or whatever. Replacing irons with good length left is a waste of time and money and generally a distraction from the business at hand.

 

[Jacob]

If that's what came with the planes use it. Same advice if the planes were supplied with A2, plain high carbon, 1970s-era admixture or whatever. Replacing irons with good length left is a waste of time and money and generally a distraction from the business at hand.

Yep.
I find it makes no difference at all, except when sharpening. I may notice that it seems to be taking longer and when I look I realise it's the Hock blade. Vice versa sharpening seems quick and it turns out to be the Japanese Smoothcut. I get the feeling that the Hock blade keeps an edge longer but I haven't tested it.
But it wouldn't make any difference to me if they were all Hock, or laminated Record etc etc. Haven't knowingly tried PMT 999 or whatever it 's called but I don't suppose I'm missing anything.
But I've only bought the two over hyped blades so haven't wasted too much money on the fruitless search for a better blade.

 

[pgrbff]

If that's what came with the planes use it. Same advice if the planes were supplied with A2, plain high carbon, 1970s-era admixture or whatever. Replacing irons with good length left is a waste of time and money and generally a distraction from the business at hand.

If you read what I had said you would know I'm quite happy and have no intention replacing the blade. It would be nice however if I knew how the steels compared next time I buy a Veritas plane.

Yep.
I find it makes no difference at all, except when sharpening. I may notice that it seems to be taking longer and when I look I realise it's the Hock blade. Vice versa sharpening seems quick and it turns out to be the Japanese Smoothcut. I get the feeling that the Hock blade keeps an edge longer but I haven't tested it.
But it wouldn't make any difference to me if they were all Hock, or laminated Record etc etc. Haven't knowingly tried PMT 999 or whatever it 's called but I don't suppose I'm missing anything.
But I've only bought the two over hyped blades so haven't wasted too much money on the fruitless search for a better blade.

For some reason the plane with PM-V11 blade was cheaper at Dieter Schmidt tools, it is usually more expensive, so I haven't wasted any money in the fruitless search for a better blade.

 

[--Tom--]

A2 is an air hardening steel- what the A stands for, and while having the same amount of carbon has more alloying elements. These alloying elements lead to carbide formation which in turn is intended to increase edge retention by resisting wear.
PMV is a powder metallurgy steel - what the pm stands for, and is even more alloyed than A2. By using the PM process you can pack a load of alloying if compounds in, get them evenly distributed and use massive pressure to avoid grain growth. It’s more complex than that, and there are books written on it if you want to google.
The offset of the carbides is that it takes a bit longer to sharpen, there’s a debate raging about the need to use diamonds to cut the carbides to sharpen effectively, and they make the steel less tough so more prone to edge failure through chipping.

O1 being the least alloyed will be quick to sharpen, take a keen edge, but not hood it as long.

The reason to pick one of the other would be if you want a steel that gets sharp easily but needs regular touch ups- pick O1, if you’re happy working with a slightly fuller edge that’ll last longer and you don’t mind the odd chip- pick A2. You work with a lot of hard abrasive timbers that dull blades quickly - pick PMV.

If picking between planes - PMV for a Jack, O1 for a smoother.

I could write more but it gets detailed and dull quickly

 

[pgrbff]

A2 is an air hardening steel- what the A stands for, and while having the same amount of carbon has more alloying elements. These alloying elements lead to carbide formation which in turn is intended to increase edge retention by resisting wear.
PMV is a powder metallurgy steel - what the pm stands for, and is even more alloyed than A2. By using the PM process you can pack a load of alloying if compounds in, get them evenly distributed and use massive pressure to avoid grain growth. It’s more complex than that, and there are books written on it if you want to google.
The offset of the carbides is that it takes a bit longer to sharpen, there’s a debate raging about the need to use diamonds to cut the carbides to sharpen effectively, and they make the steel less tough so more prone to edge failure through chipping.

O1 being the least alloyed will be quick to sharpen, take a keen edge, but not hood it as long.

The reason to pick one of the other would be if you want a steel that gets sharp easily but needs regular touch ups- pick O1, if you’re happy working with a slightly fuller edge that’ll last longer and you don’t mind the odd chip- pick A2. You work with a lot of hard abrasive timbers that dull blades quickly - pick PMV.

If picking between planes - PMV for a Jack, O1 for a smoother.

I could write more but it gets detailed and dull quickly

I find it interesting. My chemistry teacher once wrote to my parents complaining I asked too many questions.

 

[Trafalgar]

Yep.
I find it makes no difference at all, except when sharpening. I may notice that it seems to be taking longer and when I look I realise it's the Hock blade. Vice versa sharpening seems quick and it turns out to be the Japanese Smoothcut. I get the feeling that the Hock blade keeps an edge longer but I haven't tested it.
But it wouldn't make any difference to me if they were all Hock, or laminated Record etc etc. Haven't knowingly tried PMT 999 or whatever it 's called but I don't suppose I'm missing anything.
But I've only bought the two over hyped blades so haven't wasted too much money on the fruitless search for a better blade.

If you read what I had said you would know I'm quite happy and have no intention replacing the blade. It would be nice however if I knew how the steels compared next time I buy a Veritas plane.

For some reason the plane with PM-V11 blade was cheaper at Dieter Schmidt tools, it is usually more expensive, so I haven't wasted any money in the fruitless search for a better blade.

Well, you're about to use it a lot so report back to us your impressions. You'll be the go-to guy. I'm quite sure you'll find it more than adequate. It's been out for a while (PM-V11) and I've not read any horror stores about it.

 

[raffo]

Pgrbff, then you'll like David's posts. He has a blog where he goes into a lot of detail regarding different steel in the context of woodworking.

https://ofhandmaking.com/
If you are interested in accessible descriptions of hardenable steels for edge tools with a focus on knives, head over to Larrin Thomas's site, Knife Steel Nerds - Metallurgy and Testing of Knives and Steel. He's an actual metallurgist with a job in the steel industry and who blogs about knife steels as a hobby. He's got accurate articles describing powder steels, air hardening steels, cryogenic treatments, steel history, etc. Regarding cryogenic treatments, he's got a good article, nothing like the nonsense magical description seen in magazines ad copy.

Regarding pmv11, it's a proprietary steel, its composition is unknown. It's what it is, it makes a good cutting tool.

In the US, there are two new powder steel irons being offered, one is CPM-10V and the other is CPM Magnacut. The first has been around for several decades and the other is brand new, invented by Larrin Thomas. The formulations are not secret and information on them can be found online.

https://dfmtoolworks.com/products/cpm-10v-2-plane-blade
https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/collections/handplane-blades

 

[Trafalgar]

A lot of the marketing puffery that goes along with these steels, if literally true, would be Nobel Prize worthy stuff in material science or some related category.

Take it all with a huge, huge grain of salt.

A bona fide breakthrough would be something like a steel at 50 Rc, working as well as one at 65 Rc. Easy to sharpen, but stays sharp literally hours on end. Obviously an example at a somewhat absurd end of the scale, but you get the idea.

The improvements are well at the margin, they're meaningful for large manufacturers who buy hundreds of thousands of dollars in disposable tooling every year. For a guy or gal working in their backyard -- not so much.

 

[--Tom--]

Word on the street is that PMV is the same as cpm154 which is itself an analogue of rwl34

Steels get named by the company that makes them and then some vendors rebrand to make them special

Like zwilling make steels out of sg2 which they call 5000MCD which is also the same as R2

It’s funny 10-15 years ago most of the hobbyist real world steel info was coming from woodworking and planing tests. Knife making has had a massive resurgence and so knife steel info is now often correlated to woodwork tools.

Larrin’s stuff is good, he grew up in his dad’s knife making shop and did a doctorate in metallurgy.

 

[raffo]

The size of the knife crowd is many many times that of the hobby woodworking crowd. They get their dumb forged by fire TV show, all those forge hammering videos on YT and the rope chopping demos to show how good their "tactical" knives are. For all their childishness, they are a very engaged and enthusiastic community. CPM Magnacut was designed for knives. There's another new steel formulation called ApexUltra, designed to be forged. Magnacut is sold in bar stock, one cuts it to shape and then heat treats it; ApexUltra would be hammered to shape and then heat treated.

CStanford, I'm not selling or pushing any of these steels, they're out there, anybody can buy them if they're curious enough to try. There's plenty of information out there that describes them in detail. You're seeing things that are not there.