Planer and thicknesser

[Iancd]

I've read several of the threads here on this and am thinking of getting a planer, and maybe a thicknesser. The first use I'd have for this is to square up and flatten 8ft long, 8" x 4" oak 'sleepers' which are green to semi-green, rough and slightly bent. Obviously, they're a bit heavy..! I can only lift them with one end on the floor, so would have to lift an end onto the machine bed then raise the whole timber - maybe using a roller stand.
I think I've understood that I need to use a planer first to get one true face. If I've understood right, the timber rests on the planer bed and is fed through automatically by the machine with the cutter drum rotating above. Presumably the bed needs to be long enough to 'average out' any banana shape over the length of the timber to get a true flat face..? Would I then use that flat face to get an edge square to it, feeding the timber through stood up? That does sound a bit dodgy to me.. do any of these machines have two cutter drums square to each other... or is that only on industrial size machines?

What would I need for this, and how much will it cost to get something solid and reliable enough which will give a reasonable quality finish? The other issue I have is that the workshop is quite damp at times, so anything cast iron will probably be prone to rust.

I'm not sure I'll need a thicknesser..? I'm cutting the sleepers into two 100mm x 75mm lengths and one approx. 100mm x 40mm using hand-held circular saws, as I don't have a table saw. Other than this I've been buying oak ready sized as I need it for the jobs I'm doing.

 

[blackrodd]

Planing oak sleepers, as you are proposing, will need something industrial quality, probably meaning 3 phase, and many problems that could fill several sheets of paper.
It's normal practice, with few exceptions, to plane the smallest size, so cut the sleepers in half and get an older planer thicknesser, cast iron bed and single phase, wadkin, Sedgewick, etc.
It would be helpful to know what you are making, or the finish you require.
Perhaps a bigger hand held planer would suffice you're needs and keep away from a mine field of large machinery, 3 phase, technical blade setting, etc if you are not quite familiar with machinery at this time.
Sounds like you ought to consider a saw bench too, for safety, sawdust extraction, as well as easier production.
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[Iancd]

Thanks Rodders, yes it does -- I've been reading a few more threads over the last couple of hours, and browsing the web looking at various planer / thicknessers and they mostly look like they'd fall over if I tried to put these sleepers through them... even the slightly bigger machines like the Axminster AWEPT 106.

I have been wondering if the Triton TPT125 would be useful... looks like it could sit with the beds near floor level.
But it seems I (still) don't understand how these machines work... doesn't look like there's anything there to ensure an 8 foot long sleeper doesn't come out bent... maybe flat across the width, but not down the length.

I'm using the sleepers as a relatively cheap source of 100 x 75 oak rafters... two per sleeper, with a 100 x 40 length spare
I've done a test on one sleeper to see if this is viable:
Used a Makita 1911B planer (110mm wide) to smooth one face (difficult / impossible to get flat across the width)
Bosch guide saw on 2.7m rail to cut to 50mm, followed by Makita 5903 down to 85mm, flip over and use the Bosch again to finish.

The saw cuts on this one test piece haven't come out parallel to each other / square to the planed surface, so I've got rafters that are a few mm thicker on one edge.
Presumably this is either because the planed surface isn't flat / true or the saws aren't cutting square.

So, maybe I'm going to take the sleepers to my local supplier who will plane one face and an edge square to it for about £8... or alternatively cut the sleepers into 3 for about the same price.
Ian

 

[blackrodd]

What I should have emphasized is that as you are using smaller, 100 x 75 end product, this is the size you're planer will need to cope with, not the full size sleeper.
This fact will allow you in the world of smaller planer/thicknesser's. most older 260mm wide planers would suffice,
You just need to get into the straightening, and squaring process on the surface planer, there is loads on u tube to save me getting you bogged down.
Then you would regularise the stock, or timber, underneath, using the thicknesser, for an even finish.
You ought to look into the waste and dust you will produce and how to keep a safe working environment for you're self and others.
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[Woody2Shoes]

At a length of 8ft, I'd have guessed that a 100X50 cross-section would be fine for a rafter, but maybe you're matching some existing ones.

Depending on how many you're planning to make, I'd seriously consider hand tools - e.g. (optionally a scrub plane) then a jack plane - it's safer, much less dusty and (I think) more satisfying. The next best alternative for me would be to take the tool to the work with a power planer e.g. http://www.screwfix.com/p/dewalt-dw680k ... 240v/63092 as someone's already mentioned.

I'm assuming that these rafters don't need to be mm perfect - even if I thought they'd stay mm perfect over time!

Assuming you do use a machine, you'll end up up with planer marks (ripple-effect) which you'll perhaps want to remove (smoothing plane or powere sander).

I think it's worth saying that oak selected for "sleepers" is probably stuff that might not get selected for structural purposes - you may end up with a little more waste than you anticipate.

A reasonably relevant article here: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/proje ... ide-boards

Cheers, W2S

 

[Iancd]

Thanks both, really helpful.
I'd tried planing the sleeper full width because I thought I needed a flatter surface to work from with the saws. I'm not sure it made much difference to how square the cuts turned out, so I'll try cutting the next one without planing first.
I've just planed off the cut 100 x 75 pieces (using the Makita 1911) and finished them briefly with belt and RO sanders. They've turned out OK - much better than I thought they were going to this morning, in fact, so I know the process is viable.
And maybe I don't need a planer or planer/thicknesser...
...Yet
When I get to making the doors, kitchen, table, dresser and bed it might be a different story..! ;-)

 

[HOJ]

I would buy a band saw, square them up and cut them to size using a carriage, then clean them up with tools you have.

 

[Rhossydd]

So, maybe I'm going to take the sleepers to my local supplier who will plane one face and an edge square to it for about £8... or alternatively cut the sleepers into 3 for about the same price.

This sounds your best option to me.
If you can't even lift and support the timber you want to machine, you're going to need big, capable machines that take up a lot of space and cost a lot. You'll also need some time to learn how to use them effectively before putting any valuable timber through them.

Also be aware that trying to straighten and plane 'green and semi-green' wood has it's own problems in addition to the mechanical difficulties of machining. If the sleepers are already 'slightly bent' those twists may get worse, possibly a lot, when cut. Internal stresses in the wood can get released and if there's much difference in moisture content between the outer surface and those exposed by cutting, that could (will) cause further distortion.

 

[Jacob]

....

I'm not sure I'll need a thicknesser..? I'm cutting the sleepers into two 100mm x 75mm lengths and one approx. 100mm x 40mm using hand-held circular saws, as I don't have a table saw. Other than this I've been buying oak ready sized as I need it for the jobs I'm doing.

Basic practice is to start with a cutting list for whatever it is you are going to make.
If you don't know what you are going to make just leave it all alone.
Saw for the component pieces from the cutting list; to length and/or to width/depth with a margin for error especially if at all wet.

If you are using hand held circular saws you need a home made saw board. Google - there dozens of them on the net e.g.http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/to ... 2/4283497/

Only think of planing when you have everything sawn to near finished size.

 

[MMUK]

If this is just a one-off project is a PT really worth the investment? I'm sure if you have a friendly local wood yard they will happily run your sleepers through their own 3 phase industrial quality machines for a few beers

 

[heimlaga]

In British terminilogy a surfacer or planer is a machine that has an infeed and an outfeed table and a cutterhead in the gap between them. The stock is hand fed along the top of the machine to get it straight and square. A thicknesser is a machine where the wood if power fed between the table and the cutterhead to give the stock an even thickness.
Americans use the word jointer where a Brit says surfacer or planer and Americans say planer where a Brit says thicknesser.
Did this clarify anything? Apparently you have tried to plane the wood straight using a thicknesser. That does not work just as you have found out on your own.

For straightening an 8 feet piece of 4x8 oak you need a big surfacer of industrial quality. Yesterday I saw a very fine 12 inch capacity pre-1917 model Beronius surfacer by the roadside with 300 euro asking prize but that is an exception. Normally a machine with capacity enough for that kind of work would cost 800 euros secondhand and at least 5000 euros new.
I would rip those cants to size before planing. Rip a bit oversize to allow for planing to size. Ripping could be done on a big band saw or on a cirkular rip saw. Both of those are industral sized machines running on 3 phase power. I paid 20 euros for my cirkular rip saw with 24" blade but it is 130 years old and had moss growing on the table. A new one costs 12000 euros. I know of a big enough band saw which is for sale for 90 euros secondhand without a motor and with all bearings bad but a new one would cost at least 4000. I don't know what the euro is worth right now versus the pound but the prices of new machines are high anyway.
So....if this is a one time job I think you should look for someone who owns the proper machines for the job and will do it for you. If you want to be able to do this repeatedly on your own you either must have a lot of money or be a good scrounger with time and skill enough to rebuild old machines.