Plane - Sole Contact Points

[1Will]

Hi -
The highlighted section is recessed / depressed when compared with the rest of the sole.
Will continuing to flatten the sole until the highlighted depression is removed make much difference to the performance of the plane or is it diminishing returns from this point?

The plane is a no4 Stanley


Thanks
Will

 

[worn thumbs]

It will inevitably be diminishing returns.I would like to be wrong,but I sincerely hope you didn't leave the iron in it's cutting position while doing the flattening.Because it now needs sharpening.Having done that,can you report back on how it is performing?

 

[1Will]

It will inevitably be diminishing returns.I would like to be wrong,but I sincerely hope you didn't leave the iron in it's cutting position while doing the flattening.Because it now needs sharpening.Having done that,can you report back on how it is performing?

Thanks, when I was flattening the sole, the iron was seated but wound back out of the way.

I've been using the plane for a day or so fairly intensively, it appears to be working well. Any litmus tests you could suggest?

Sometimes shavings get humps and valleys in, other times they wind up into neat little toilet rolls. Is this indicative of anything? Seems like a lot of variables.

I followed Paul sellers video, Its a lot of work to get down to the suggested 4 thou. I suspect its not the limiting factor in the quality of my work!

 

[Jacob]

I've been using the plane for a day or so fairly intensively, it appears to be working well. Any litmus tests you could suggest?

What else do you need other than to have it working well?

Sometimes shavings get humps and valleys in, other times they wind up into neat little toilet rolls. Is this indicative of anything? Seems like a lot of variables.

Means nothing interesting. But you'll get used to the variations the more you use the plane.

I followed Paul sellers video, Its a lot of work to get down to the suggested 4 thou. I suspect its not the limiting factor in the quality of my work!

If it's working well I wouldn't waste any time trying to make a work a tiny bit better - you might make it worse!
The single thing which could improve performance most dramatically is a quick 3 second squiggle of candle wax on the sole every now and then.

 

[Ttrees]

Sometimes shavings get humps and valleys in, other times they wind up into neat little toilet rolls. Is this indicative of anything? Seems like a lot of variables.

I'd have a guess that issue is because of unsupported work deflecting.
Beware if wanting to get to the bottom of the dips, as there is much chance of making a big convex mess, obliterating the perimeter of the tool, and there's no way to fix that without targeted removal
which has to be some method of abrading such as a small block w/abrasive or a smaller than the area of the plane sized piece, in order not to remove metal from the perimeter.
You might have a real good surface plate of sorts which your using.

If you had two pieces, you could see what your doing, so just sayin incase you think
an even scratch pattern means flat.
That doesn't mean a thing.

How's about tuning your plane instead of lapping the sole?
i.e hone your cap iron like the very few who actually use it, and not take any suggestions otherwise,
and make some straight shavings as you'd expect a smoother to produce.
Much different from the usual folks who choose to not see a plane working like it should.

Best to get this down early before you get too caught up in some singular gurus, money making rhetoric,
as you'd find out most of those utubers aren't honest like they would make you believe.

Straight shavings is the sign of the cap iron working, and that's the pinnacle of making a hand plane souped up, i.e cap honed at 50 degrees or greater.
and don't break the three rules when you do!
(it simply won't work if you try doing your own thing)

Forget the rest of the red herrings, and see how it performs with some of the best lessons from St David Charlesworth.
Choose his methodology on things, and lessons on accurate planing,
and combine with actually getting straight shavings from the plane,
and by that I don't mean Cosman either, but from someone who makes use of the cap iron instead.

If you don't see shavings straightening, then you're not looking at what you should be watching, simple as that.
An example for you, which should be enough to weed out plenty of gurus concerning hand planes.

Enjoy



Tom

 

[Trafalgar]

I don't know about 'plane gurus' and such (or really WTF that even is), but here's a working fine furnituremaker using hand planes and other hand tools (though not exclusively) -- getting actual work out the door, in commercially feasible timeframes, and being paid for it:



They have several videos posted and all are worth a watch, especially if it helps you cut through some of the rubbish on forums as to reasonable expectations from hand tool usage.

All that said, you can always limit your "woodworking" to planing test boards after hours and on weekends.

You will see a slight sprinkling of vintage hand tools being used if you watch all the videos, but the vast majority are quite obviously of current make and of easily identifiable brands. Take that for what it's worth. I don't think they have a lot of time to restore and tune tools.

 

[Ttrees]

and a Shapton 1trillion superhone, to match of course!...
All in effort to make up for being too wary to hone an expensive cap iron steeper.

 

[Jacob]

I'd have a guess that issue is because of unsupported work deflecting.
Beware if wanting to get to the bottom of the dips, as there is much chance of making a big convex mess, obliterating the perimeter of the tool, and there's no way to fix that without targeted removal
which has to be some method of abrading such as a small block w/abrasive or a smaller than the area of the plane sized piece, in order not to remove metal from the perimeter.
You might have a real good surface plate of sorts which your using.

If you had two pieces, you could see what your doing, so just sayin incase you think
an even scratch pattern means flat.
That doesn't mean a thing.

How's about tuning your plane instead of lapping the sole?
i.e hone your cap iron like the very few who actually use it, and not take any suggestions otherwise,
and make some straight shavings as you'd expect a smoother to produce.
Much different from the usual folks who choose to not see a plane working like it should.

Best to get this down early before you get too caught up in some singular gurus, money making rhetoric,
as you'd find out most of those utubers aren't honest like they would make you believe.

Straight shavings is the sign of the cap iron working, and that's the pinnacle of making a hand plane souped up, i.e cap honed at 50 degrees or greater.
and don't break the three rules when you do!
(it simply won't work if you try doing your own thing)

Forget the rest of the red herrings, and see how it performs with some of the best lessons from St David Charlesworth.
Choose his methodology on things, and lessons on accurate planing,
and combine with actually getting straight shavings from the plane,
and by that I don't mean Cosman either, but from someone who makes use of the cap iron instead.

If you don't see shavings straightening, then you're not looking at what you should be watching, simple as that.
An example for you, which should be enough to weed out plenty of gurus concerning hand planes.

Enjoy



Tom

Dunno to be honest I reckon a squiggle of candle wax is likely to be more useful than all of Mystic Dave's magic rituals.
I like the idea of straight shavings though - it sounds like a neat conjuring trick! Can't say I've ever produced one in my life, perhaps too old to start trying now.
I think my mistake has been to pay more attention to the surface of the wood I'm planing rather than the quality of the shavings. In fact I barely look at them. Must try harder!

 

[Jacob]

Straight shavings!

 

[1Will]

Straight shavings is the sign of the cap iron working, and that's the pinnacle of making a hand plane souped up, i.e cap honed at 50 degrees or greater.
and don't break the three rules when you do!
(it simply won't work if you try doing your own thing)


Tom

Can you elaborate on this, on what you mean by the cap being honed at > 50 degrees. Are you referring to angle B in the image below

thanks, Will

 

[Ttrees]

Yes "B" is what I'm referring to.
No tight mouths, and no clipped corners are the other two rules, simple.

I posted Holcombe's video which shows a heavier cut, just incase it's your only plane,
and you're having to do it all with that.
I suggest a very even camber to suit, whats no greater than 1/32" of a distance from apex of the cutter, "C" on the image, as not to overshoot the corners of the cap iron.

You could do most work with that, if you can't, then get a longer plane and make the camber on your smoother plane, more subtle than before, to suit no greater than 1/64",
and p.s. 50 degrees is about as conservative as you can get.

Straight shavings will be the result of that, and they don't need to be pinched out from the plane,
as the cap iron has made them rigid.

All the best
Tom

 

[thetyreman]

where B meets A is also critical, this is a good video on how to get them to mate perfectly, I've done it on all my planes now and it makes a massive difference.

 

[Jacob]

......this is a good video on how to get them to mate perfectly, I've done it on all my planes now and it makes a massive difference.

It has been normal practice since day 1 to slightly undercut the front edge of the cap iron so that the leading edge sits tight. The normal light-weight cap iron is also fairly springy so it will take up miner deviations, under the pressure of the lever cap.
I now understand the obsession with flattening the face - those heavy weight over-engineered cap irons aren't going sit so well on the typical blade unless it's engineered to match. Add to that a heavy modern blade and you are looking at a completely different design which seems to have lost some the advantages of the Stanley/Bailey originals; slower to sharpen etc and costs a lot more. Thin blades and springy thin cap irons do not need re-engineering!
Have to confess I have been down the over engineered route myself and own a couple of Clifton Stay-set cap irons. These are better than a solid one piece heavyweight in that the front half pivots slightly around the locating pin and can take up small deviations. They do save a few seconds of sharpening time, which is slightly useful if you go down the speedy freehand route with regular touch ups etc. but hardly essential.
Apologies for treading on holy ground here, but I'm non denominational!
PS not too impressed by Holcombes vid. He's doing the Cosmanshow trick of planing a piece of very easy wood, no doubt with an immaculately sharpened plane. Circus tricks. Holcombe doesn't look at ease with his planing - too much arm movement and not enough body. Also he should have the workpiece nearer the edge of the bench - thats probably why he looks so uncomfortable and jerky.

 

[Hornbeam]

Perhaps we all post vids of hand planing and Jacob can critique our style

 

[Jacob]

Perhaps we all post vids of hand planing and Jacob can critique our style

No thanks! All I'm critiquing is some of the gurus who claim to know and to be showing the "correct" ways and telling us all we are doing it wrong!

 

[raffo]

View attachment 159889

If C and D are small, the shavings may choke. Increase D if that happens. Move the frog back if it's a metal bodied plane.

If you can't increase D, then move the cap iron up (losing it's chip breaking effect in thin shavings). Alternatively, replace the "improved" thick iron for an OEM one.

Rafael

 

[Agent_zed]

If C and D are small, the shavings may choke. Increase D if that happens. Move the frog back if it's a metal bodied plane.

If you can't increase D, then move the cap iron up (losing it's chip breaking effect in thin shavings). Alternatively, replace the "improved" thick iron for an OEM one.

Rafael

yeah I found experimenting from the frog position helps, never really thought about it before I watched a youtube vid on setting up my plane. A smaller gap allowed me to get a finer cut but bogs down, as you say, if you try and do more rapid removal, so experimenting to get something that works for you seems to be the way to go.

 

[Jacob]

yeah I found experimenting from the frog position helps, never really thought about it before I watched a youtube vid on setting up my plane. A smaller gap allowed me to get a finer cut but bogs down, as you say, if you try and do more rapid removal, so experimenting to get something that works for you seems to be the way to go.

I experimented with frogs too and finally settled on one position - getting them dead in line with the back of the mouth, to give max support for the whole blade especially at the important end; the last few mm behind the edge.
Too many variables, too many suggestions, too many gurus. Not to mention many varieties of timber which in a perfect world would each need a very particular set up and possibly a different blade. Life is too short!
PS and yes angle B needs to be something well under 90º so that shavings will pass over and not just crush into it.

 

[Jacob]

If C and D are small, the shavings may choke. Increase D if that happens. Move the frog back if it's a metal bodied plane.

If you can't increase D, then move the cap iron up (losing it's chip breaking effect in thin shavings). Alternatively, replace the "improved" thick iron for an OEM one.

Rafael

What is OEM?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Original equipment manufacturer.