Plane set-up for flattening oak.

[Cheshirechappie]

Fair point, BB.

As Ross says he has to push harder when planing the oak than the pine (which sounds logical, oak being the harder timber), the effort he's exerting is being felt by the cutting edge of the iron, which reacts to the extra load by bending slightly downward, thus increasing the depth of cut. The solution would be to stiffen things up by either using a two-piece cap-iron instead of the standard bent metal one, using a thicker iron, or both. It might also be worth setting the cap-iron back a little more than you would use for a smoother.

Interestingly, Ross doesn't mention chatter, which is something I've experienced with thin irons on hard woods. It usually happens at the beginning of a cut, and the surface shows a series of parallel 'cut-lines' about 1/8" apart as the iron digs in, snaps off a shaving and springs out, then digs in again. Skewing the plane often reduces or eliminates the problem, which is fine if smoothing, but no help if trying an edge. Interestingly, I've never had chatter from my woody planes - maybe because they have much thicker irons. Since fitting a thicker Clifton iron and two-piece cap-iron in my tryplane (Record 07) some years ago, I've had no problems with chatter; whether this is because the iron is thicker and therefore stiffer, I don't know, but the problem has gone away.

 

[Jacob]

....
I've used both camellia oil and wax which reduce the effort, but do worry a bit about how this might effect later finishes,...

It is largely removed with the shavings. Never seems to be a problem with finishes. Candle wax is such a valuable aid that I really wouldn't worry about finishes until it shows up as a problem.

Tuning - the main thing with hard woods is to set the frog back so that the back of the edge gets as much support as possible.
2nd is to sharpen it - you must raise a distinct burr across the whole width.
Sounds obvious I know, but it's easy to give up just a little too soon and leave a bluntish bit in the middle of the blade, as it often takes longer than you expect. Most of the blade will be still be sharp even when blunt, as most wear is in the middle. The burr is the only way of knowing that you have removed the blunt bevel, short of examining with a microscope.

The best value upgrade is a two piece cap iron. I wouldn't bother with new blades etc.

 

[RossJarvis]

Fair point, BB.

Interestingly, Ross doesn't mention chatter, which is something I've experienced with thin irons on hard woods. It usually happens at the beginning of a cut, and the surface shows a series of parallel 'cut-lines' about 1/8" apart as the iron digs in, snaps off a shaving and springs out, then digs in again. Skewing the plane often reduces or eliminates the problem, which is fine if smoothing, but no help if trying an edge. Interestingly, I've never had chatter from my woody planes - maybe because they have much thicker irons. Since fitting a thicker Clifton iron and two-piece cap-iron in my tryplane (Record 07) some years ago, I've had no problems with chatter; whether this is because the iron is thicker and therefore stiffer, I don't know, but the problem has gone away.

Ah, yes, there is a bit of something like that at the beginning of the cut, though the gaps are longer. The tendency was that the iron seemed to jump from the edge of the stock, dig in about 1/2 inch in, jump a bit and start cutting. I'm reasonably meticulous about sharpening the iron, checking for burr on entirety of edge and that final honing extends across the full width (though I can't promise I'm not cacking something up there). Along with the general lack of experience there's also the circumstances I'm working in. No proper workbench, so planing on stock secured with nail heads to anything large and flat enough.

Once again, thanks for the tips everyone , It's given a few good pointers to look at. I think I need to check for sole flatness, then try adjustments of back-iron and frog. If that doesn't work I'll stick to green oak in future :? .

 

[Jacob]

Chatter means you are doing it wrong, it's not the plane.
Might be your "bench" isn't stiff enough - might need bracing against the wall you are planing towards. A planing beam japanese style is good idea - basically a joist, braced against something.
Could be too coarse a cut - try putting the nose on to the workpiece and advance it slowly until you feel the blade engage, and stop. Then hold it down tight and start forwards again. If too deep a cut you may find this difficult. You are aiming at a steady slow controlled push rather than a swipe or stab.
Could be blade not tight enough or too far forwards.
Could be all sorts of things!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Chatter means you are doing it wrong, it's not the plane.

Chatter (in the normally accepted sense of the term) is a quite specific problem and stems from a lack of rigidity in the blade, usually caused by a thin blade/bending of the blade by the bent metal type of cap iron/poor seating on the frog, or a combination of these issues. Can usually be cured by fitting a two-piece Clifton cap iron and/or a thicker blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

Chatter means you are doing it wrong, it's not the plane.

Chatter (in the normally accepted sense of the term) is a quite specific problem and stems from a lack of rigidity in the blade, usually caused by a thin blade/bending of the blade by the bent metal type of cap iron/poor seating on the frog, or a combination of these issues. Can usually be cured by fitting a two-piece Clifton cap iron and/or a thicker blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

More often due to loose or springy work holding in my experience. Sometimes just putting something lower in a vice will stop chatter.

 

[bugbear]

Chatter means you are doing it wrong, it's not the plane.

Chatter (in the normally accepted sense of the term) is a quite specific problem and stems from a lack of rigidity in the blade, usually caused by a thin blade/bending of the blade by the bent metal type of cap iron/poor seating on the frog, or a combination of these issues. Can usually be cured by fitting a two-piece Clifton cap iron and/or a thicker blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Jeff Gorman coined "skitter" for the other (similar) problem.

BugBear

 

[Saint Simon]

I have found that, as Jacob says, if the wood isn't supported adequately, because its bowed or twisted and is springing under the pressure of planing, can cause real problems however good your plane is. Getting one side roughly flat and then working more precisely on the other helps sort out a lot of flattening problems.
Just my pennys worth,
Simon

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The plane is performing well on mild woods, giving translucent (ie very thin) shavings. Consequently, provided the workpieces are coming out flat and not convex, the sole is flat enough. (If the sole was slightly concave, the mouth area would be clear of the wood when both ends of the plane were in contact with the wood, and a fine-set iron wouldn't cut, so no fine shavings unless the job is planed hump-backed.)

So, if it's flat enough for mild woods, it's flat enough for harder ones.

From my experience, Bailey planes with thin irons are fine on softwoods, and work well enough on milder hardwoods such as mahogany and ash. They're OK on the likes of sycamore, too. However, when you get to really hard woods - oak, beech and the exotics - they do start to struggle a bit. For wood preparation, when fair dimensional accuracy is more important than ultra-smooth finishes, they can get by, but for high dimensional accuracy and super finish, they sometimes can't quite perform well enough. That's when the extra stiffness of blade and blade support is needed.

There are several ways to improve matters. Making sure the job is well supported is certainly one. For the affluent and well-equipped, switching to a stiffer plane such as an infill is another. Setting the frog back so that the iron bed-surface is continuous from the mouth opening may help, but has the disadvantage of opening the mouth and therefore exacerbating any tear-out problems there may be. A general tune-up of frog seating and blade seating surface can help too, but the most sure-fire way is to stiffen things up with a two-piece cap-iron and stiffer (thicker) blade, which allows the user to maintain a narrow mouth and thus limit tear-out.

As Ross points out, the other pragmatic way to avoid the problem is to use the plane within it's limits by avoiding very hard woods!

 

[Corneel]

You can use the chipbreaker too to help in the chattering department AND in tearout reduction. When you set the chipbreaker very close to the edge, you won't need a tight mouth in 99% of the cases to avoid tearout. The blade is stiffened quite a bit too with this setup, and it allows you to pull the frog back so it sits flush with the sole. But a thicker blade certainly helps to make things stiffer. But it has the disadvantage of longer sharpening time. I haven't tried a thicker chipbreaker yet, sounds like a perfect solution.

 

[Jacob]

The plane is performing well on mild woods, giving translucent (ie very thin) shavings. ...

"Performing well" means producing thick shavings (not thin translucent ones) i.e. getting the waste off fast. The critical thing is the quality of surface on the workpiece. The shavings go in the bin and are not interesting at all.

 

[RossJarvis]

Another member has offered to spend some time helping me look through the issue. Hopefully we'll be able to find out whether it's a tool or user issue, or combination of both.

 

[G S Haydon]

That's great to hear Ross, good luck!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The plane is performing well on mild woods, giving translucent (ie very thin) shavings. ...

"Performing well" means producing thick shavings (not thin translucent ones) i.e. getting the waste off fast. The critical thing is the quality of surface on the workpiece. The shavings go in the bin and are not interesting at all.

The point I was trying to make here is that if Ross's plane is capable of giving very thin shavings, the sole of his plane is adequately flat. The reason I was addressing that point is that Ross suggested that perhaps sole flatness was something he needed to check.

Well done to the mystery forum member. Ross, I hope a bit of a practical session helps to answer your questions!

 

[Vann]

The shavings go in the bin...

In the bin :!: Certainly not sir.

Ours get used in the kids guinea pig cage, or put in the compost heap (or both - eventually), and we have very discerning guinea pigs.... (none of your coarse shavings thanks, only the finest)

Hat, coat...

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Vann]

...The solution would be to stiffen things up by either using a two-piece cap-iron instead of the standard bent metal one, using a thicker iron, or both.

Since fitting a thicker Clifton iron and two-piece cap-iron in my tryplane (Record 07) some years ago, I've had no problems with chatter; whether this is because the iron is thicker and therefore stiffer, I don't know, but the problem has gone away.

Just for discussion purposes - is it worth using a thicker cap-iron AND a thicker cutting iron?

I would have thought that a thicker cap-iron would be the first step (as it is both cheaper, and easier to fit). If that didn't work, or if the iron needs replacing for other reasons (e.g. pitting) then consider a thicker cutting iron.

But if a plane requires both to dampen chatter then it must be in a bad way, and needs fettling surely !?!

Cheers, Vann.

 

[bugbear]

...The solution would be to stiffen things up by either using a two-piece cap-iron instead of the standard bent metal one, using a thicker iron, or both.

Since fitting a thicker Clifton iron and two-piece cap-iron in my tryplane (Record 07) some years ago, I've had no problems with chatter; whether this is because the iron is thicker and therefore stiffer, I don't know, but the problem has gone away.

Just for discussion purposes - is it worth using a thicker cap-iron AND a thicker cutting iron?

With planing, it's a question of getting the tool to at least the performance level required by the task at hand.

There are several things known to improve plane performance, and they all cost money. By popular agreement, something like a Holtey panel plane embodies them all. But many tasks simply do not need that level of performance (and, indeed, do not measurably benefit from it), and can be done just as well with a less-tuned (and likely cheaper) plane.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

...The solution would be to stiffen things up by either using a two-piece cap-iron instead of the standard bent metal one, using a thicker iron, or both.

Since fitting a thicker Clifton iron and two-piece cap-iron in my tryplane (Record 07) some years ago, I've had no problems with chatter; whether this is because the iron is thicker and therefore stiffer, I don't know, but the problem has gone away.

Just for discussion purposes - is it worth using a thicker cap-iron AND a thicker cutting iron?

I would have thought that a thicker cap-iron would be the first step (as it is both cheaper, and easier to fit). If that didn't work, or if the iron needs replacing for other reasons (e.g. pitting) then consider a thicker cutting iron.

But if a plane requires both to dampen chatter then it must be in a bad way, and needs fettling surely !?!

Cheers, Vann.

Actually, that's a good point. Lots of people (including me) trot out various opinions, but I don't know if anybody has ever done any comparative trials to see what improvements really make most difference, and under what set of circumstances.

Bugbear's point is also very valid. If you never work with hard exotics, there would be little point in tuning your planes to cope with them, especially if your planes work satisfactorily on the timbers you do use.

Would make an interesting thread of it's own....

 

[James-1986]

Oak will never plane up like pine, two totally different materials when you think about it. Oak has a coarse grain so beyond a certain point you just get dust, no amount of 'tuning' is going to change that!

 

[RossJarvis]

Having spent a good few hours with another forum member, it seems that the plane is pretty well sorted and I was just asking a bit too much of it (cheers Paul ). I.e. hoping to get a good scrub/fore/try/smoother/jointer out of one plane with one iron. I'm trying to have as few tools as possible and learn to use them as best I can, I'll just need to use more than one plane.

We decided it's probably a good idea to have the 5 1/2 set up with a toothed or "cambered" iron for stock removal and rely on the 4 for smoothing, or maybe have a few irons to swap out on the 5 1/2. We also discussed getting a 7 or 8, but I really must resist the urge to buy any more tools before I can use the ones I've got :? . (I'm sure no-one else here gets the urge to buy more tools :lol: )

I think Cheshirechappie had pointed out the issues best. It goes to show that you can't beat having someone with more experience on-hand to work these things through with.

So thanks for all the help and advice, a really good and knowledgable bunch of chappies/ettes you all are.

All I need to do now is go out and practice as much as I can.

We also had a quick look at what the difference was between my Bahco and new Japanese chisels. About 42 quid each seems to be the answer