Plane Matters

[Steve Wardley]

Hi Guy's.
I'm aiming this question at those who have in the past repaired or refurbished a hand plane.
I've recently come by a Record No4 smooth plane that needs a little TLC and one I have decided to clean up a small amount of light surface rust and re-varnish the wooden handles.
Now the main rear handle is in two pieces, perhaps due to a loose main screw or the thing having been dropped but the two halves fit together seamlessly and I am wondering if normal PVA glue would be suitable to fix the two halves together prior to varnish and re-assembly or if there is a better alternative.
I will of course be making sure the main top screw is kept tight to avoid this repair being stressed once it is back in service.
I'm not minded to use epoxy as I think it would create a joint too wide to be mechanically sound unless there are opinions in favour of it.

Cheers in advance, Steve

 

[ED65]

I am wondering if normal PVA glue would be suitable to fix the two halves together prior to varnish

If the halves fit together seamlessly then it's a good candidate for using PVA, but you have to rig up something that will provide strong pressure across the split to get a strong joint.

Since the crack surfaces are old do be sure to clean them before you glue, wiping with alcohol or acetone is good since they shouldn't swell the wood.

I will of course be making sure the main top screw is kept tight to avoid this repair being stressed once it is back in service.

If it's a long-grain glue surface and you do it right (back to the strong squeeze) there shouldn't be any need to concern yourself about the strength in service, as with any well-made glue joint the repair should end up stronger than the wood.

I'm not minded to use epoxy as I think it would create a joint too wide to be mechanically sound unless there are opinions in favour of it.

I don't think you should use it for this but for many epoxy is the default glue for handle repairs. In addition to not requiring clamp pressure to achieve a strong bond epoxy is gap-filling so very useful for many old breaks where some wood has been lost, or the parts have separately warped just a bit.

Since epoxy can also bond to metal so well it means you can reinforce with steel dowels if needed, and the gap-filling ability means you can drill one end of each pair of holes to a sloppy fit so there are no alignment headaches. A short length of nail is fine for the dowel, or you can use a bit of screw or threaded rod which is stronger but I doubt that's necessary; in one old repair I had to take apart to re-do the previous owner had used a bit of copper pipe.

 

[Just4Fun]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I refurbished a No 5 for a friend and that plane had a broken rear handle. The two halves fit cleanly together, same as on your No4. I used normal PVA glue and I just held the 2 parts together with masking tape while the glue dried. My friend has been using that plane for over a year and the handle has stayed together, so at least in this case this approach seems to have worked.

 

[Racers]

Epoxy or PVA will work, I have a threaded bolt and shaped blocks to cramp them together, which isn't needed for epoxy.

You might find the handle bolt in the plane pulls the crack apart when you tighten it, its why I made the bolt and clamps.

Pete

 

[MikeG.]

It all depends on the break. If it has split along the grain, then re-gluing will be fine. If it has broken across the grain, then re-gluing seems an almighty risk. It really isn't a difficult task to make a new wooden handle, so I suggest that if you have any doubt about the integrity of any possible repair then consider cutting and shaping a new one of your own rather than risk a poor join breaking down later.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is surprising how strong PVA is. Some 25 years ago a friend threw his pool cue on the ground in frustration and the last six inches broke off - it was a poor choice of a piece of short grained ash, and the break was clean. I offered to repair it and he said he didn't want it any more. It is still there in use daily.

 

[D_W]

I'd use epoxy or hide glue. If PVA isn't clamped tightly (which can be difficult), you might have a rebreak and then you'll have a less than ideal glue surface.

Don't worry about a small glue line from epoxy, and don't worry about putting moderate clamp pressure on it - it'll be fine.

(I have had PVA glued handles break, but none that were epoxy).

Despite the commentary from people that "the glue is stronger than the wood", if you have a rebreak, it'll be at the glue line, even if it takes a few fibers with it. Certain things (levering, popping joints, etc) make glue fail fairly easily.

I may have missed it, but presumably this handle is either rosewood or beech. If it breaks again, you can cut it clean at the top and the bottom and glue an insert in it, and if it looks bad, just stain it or oil it dark.

 

[ED65]

Because many people do apparently read these statements as equivalent, "the glue is stronger than the wood" is not saying the same as "the glue joint is stronger than the wood".

 

[D_W]

They do. I have to admit that I learned something from Paul Sellers in terms of glue joints. It's never occurred to me to break a glue joint, and in furniture/cabinets, etc, I've never had a panel fail. I've also never had a repair of other peoples items/tables/chairs fail.

However, paul had a video up a while ago where he popped a day-old glue joint with a chisel and it separated surprisingly easily.

I had a veritas custom plane from about the time that those planes became available. I promptly (unintentionally) dropped it off of my bench, something I've never done with any other metal plane. The plane (casting, metal parts) fared fine, but the handle broke right in the middle (maple). It broke cleanly and I glued it with PVA with decent, but not what I'd call adequate glue strength. Certainly no gaps, etc.

Several weeks later, despite the post being properly tight, the handle gave way at the glue joint a second time - in the middle of vigorous planing (which you're bound to do if you're not using power tools).

I've long since ditched most of my other planes with broken handles (all but one were epoxied since you don't need clamp pressure to make a good joint), not because of the handles, but because you just can't keep everything, but none of them.

At any rate, Seller's videos on popping a glue joint open are worth watching for folks who believe they'll never compromise a glue joint because "the glue is stronger than the wood".

 

[Steve Wardley]

Thanks for the responses there guy's, it gives me plenty to go on.
This No4 is old but of no antique value as millions of them were made but it will get some care and good use.

Cheers again.

 

[richarddownunder]

If its a rosewood handle, then, irrespective of the glue you end up using (if it isn't a completely clean break, I'd probably favour epoxy), it would be a good idea to wipe the joint surfaces thoroughly with acetone as rosewood is oily and glue won't take.

Cheers
Richard

 

[ED65]

However, paul had a video up a while ago where he popped a day-old glue joint with a chisel and it separated surprisingly easily.

Which indicates he underclamped, assuming the surfaces were prepped just prior to glue going on.

As with the cap iron Mr. Sellers doesn't make full use of his clamps :mrgreen:

I've long since ditched most of my other planes with broken handles (all but one were epoxied since you don't need clamp pressure to make a good joint), not because of the handles, but because you just can't keep everything, but none of them.

I too use only epoxy for these repairs. It's helpful not to have to squeeze two awkwardly shaped pieces together as hard as I'd want to if using PVA, but on the planes I buy I do tend to need to use epoxy anyway as these are old breaks, often without clean edges so I get to glue and fill in one go. And if there are splits in the front knob I like them to match so I use the same epoxy mix.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm glad you clarified that - I wondered what "underlamping" was.

 

[ED65]

Oopsie. Thanks Phil, corrected to save confusion.

 

[D_W]

However, paul had a video up a while ago where he popped a day-old glue joint with a chisel and it separated surprisingly easily.

Which indicates he underclamped, assuming the surfaces were prepped just prior to glue going on.

As with the cap iron Mr. Sellers doesn't make full use of his clamps :mrgreen:

[/quote]

I gather you're taking the water a little bit, but you'd be surprised how dopey people get over glue.

Larry Williams has told me more than once that I'd have failing glue joints gluing planed joints with a common pitch plane because they'd be burnished with the pores closed. He also told me that I'd have finish adhesion problems.

I've never had any such issues. I did see a good tip from someone on an american forum who has done a lot of professional work, and he suggested that the one thing beginners do (and some people get stuck doing it trying to make corrections) that results in glue joints that fail almost immediately is clamping a panel, having the glue partially set for several minutes, and then changing their mind, unclamping and sliding the joint a little bit and reclamping.

I've made a fair number of PVA joints that weren't under pressure, and only the plane handles have failed. If the glue line on a rub joint is fine/thin, PVA makes a decent rub joint.

At any rate, I couldn't find the Sellers video with a gun to my head, I'm not that familiar with his full catalog, but I was surprised how easily he was able to pop the joint.

(I've also never starved an epoxy joint until failure, though I see warnings about that constantly - i wonder if most warnings come through experience. If I was in a sporting mood, I'd make up a fake name and make a post on SMC in the US stating that I was going to woodwork without clamps because they're a waste of money and my PVA joints without clamps have all held. That would just about start a fire there).

Did find this video in looking for sellers' video for a couple of minutes earlier (no luck on paul's video). I don't know anything about this guy, but he talks about actually doing this in practice (with the peace corps) instead of saying that you can't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5fXUzIF0MU

 

[ED65]

I gather you're taking the water a little bit...

I don't know what that means.

Larry Williams has told me more than once that I'd have failing glue joints gluing planed joints with a common pitch plane because they'd be burnished with the pores closed. He also told me that I'd have finish adhesion problems.

Uh, okay Larry. Like that was an issue for a couple of hundred years, many thousands of workers?

Finish adhesion problems on a planed surface is one I really hate. Paul Sellers believes this too by the way, made all the more ironic given he likes to use shellac.

(I've also never starved an epoxy joint until failure, though I see warnings about that constantly - i wonder if most warnings come through experience.

I have done that unfortunately. Like most glue failures every time it happened it was entirely down to the user, not a fault of the adhesive

 

[D_W]

In terms of "taking the water", the forum changed the words that I used. I guess that common English saying is out of bounds here.

Couldn't tell if you were "pulling my leg".

re: the sliding around of panels, I think it's easy to find a panel that's not perfectly lined up five minutes later and want to "save yourself the work" of a bad glue up, and want to correct it. I've caught myself with the urge to take a mallet to panels in the plano clamp before, and if I hadn't seen that advice, I'm sure I would've done the same thing.

I guess these are relatively harmless errors and OWTs. Since I've picked up the hobby of making guitars this summer (as a change of pace), I've noticed absolutely absurd superstition in the community of builders and buyers. It gets even more interesting when long-time buyers who have never bought wood start asserting things about building (such as being able to hear a difference in electric guitars with animal-glued necks vs. PVA glued necks - and that's a relatively minor superstition compared to some).

 

[Lax Luthier]

Recently repaired a Stanley Bailey 5 1/5 with exactly the same issue - Titebond 1 and good clamping pressure and it's rock solid. Stripped back the original finish and wiped with many, many coats of thin CA glue and the handle at least, is as good as new.

 

[ED65]

Aha, I didn't think that might be one of the forum software's auto-corrects. Seems obvious in retrospect but then don't many things?