Plane blade edge from a Tormek?

[transatlantic]

I had a question regarding the Tormek T4.

If you were to sharpen a plane blade on it :

220 primary bevel
1000 secondary bevel

And then honed using the leather wheel and honing compound (8000)

Do you think that produces an edge comparable to 8000 grit water stones?

I.e could it replace your water stone setup?

 

[D_W]

no (it won't be as good). You're better using the tormek to grind a bevel and then either hone with a mid stone (like 3k) for a microbevel and come back and use the strop to finish the bevel or do grind on tormek, and two stones, or even one stone (like washita) and strop.

I no longer have a tormek but had a supergrind years ago - grading the wheel, etc, will get old in a hurry.

 

[Orraloon]

Agree with DW . Many years ago I got the scheppach water sharpener for my turning tools but also tried plane irons and chisels on it. They were definitely sharp enough for working even if I have no idea what grit equivalent it was. Now that said I soon went back to the oilstone because sharpening on those machines is just so slow with all that stuffing around setting up jigs and getting the angles right. Same for the turning tools went back to bench grinder for those.
Regards
John

 

[Cabinetman]

Oh S... here we go again, 8000? you’re all nuts, what are you doing, heart surgery?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

No, not good enough off the leather. In 2010 I wrote a short essay for my website on this topic, which I have copied below. At that time I was running a Tormek alongside a half-speed bench grinder. The Tormek was retired when I discovered CBN wheels.


Is the Tormek a Grinder or a Sharpener, and are 30K grits for Wankers?

I love my Tormek, but I have had a number of "debates" with the US representative of Tormek, who insists on calling it a sharpener" while I insist on it being seen to be a grinder. This is not simply a different choice of words to mean the same thing.

He argues that the Tormek is a sharpening system since the honing wheel will convert the 1000 gritted grind to a 8000 grit edge. I argue that this may be so, but I would not use it (others might, not me) on wood if I want a good finish. There is more to sharpening and preparing an edge - be it chisel or plane blade - than simply "sharp".

"Sharp" is for me synonymous with "smooth" - a smooth edge is a sharp edge. As you go up the grit ratings, so you create an ever increasing smooth edge, that is, the edge serrations become smaller and smaller. This transfers to your wood, and the finish is smoother as well.

There is a second factor. Taking an edge off a 1000 grit wheel and honing it on a 8000 wheel strop does not necessarily produce a flat edge. The edge may be 8000, it may feel sharp (cut arm hair) etc, but it can be curved/serrated/grooved, etc.

Instead one should take the edge off a Tormek (or any grinder) and smooth/straighten it out on a flat waterstone (or sandpaper, etc). I go to a 1000 Shapton for this. But if you are doing this, then there is NO NEED to go higher than 220 on the Tormek (that is, you do not need to first re-surface the wheel to 1000 grit before moving on) ... a big time saver!

... and so on to 8000, 12000, etc ... whatever you want.

But wait ... there is more!!!

Is a 12000 or 15000 or 30000 grit stone only for wankers?

No. Edges often fail, not because the steel is not strong enough, but because it is strong enough! This means that edges are more likely to chip than to bend. Chipping is more likely to occur where there are serrations, and the larger the serrations, the greater the propensity for chipping.

Soooooo .... the smaller the serrations, the less likely the chipping ... hence a higher grit sharpening will hold an edge longer than a lower grit sharpened blade.

One more thing to consider. I was reading Ron Hock’s new book, The Perfect Edge, the Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers, on sharpening in which he presents evidence that Side Sharpening leaves an edge with fewer serrations than front-and-back honing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

I had a question regarding the Tormek T4.

If you were to sharpen a plane blade on it :

220 primary bevel
1000 secondary bevel

And then honed using the leather wheel and honing compound (8000)

Do you think that produces an edge comparable to 8000 grit water stones?

I.e could it replace your water stone setup?

Probably.
But if you just want to do a bit of woodwork you can avoid all that stuff and just freehand on an oil-stone. A little and often.
It worked for everybody for thousands of years until modern sharpening was invented, 30 or so years ago - basically because it sells millions of pound worth of unnecessary stuff to beginners - just look at the list of stuff already piling up above: machines, books, grits, not even mentioned jigs yet!
If you are not confused already you certainly will be, given a few more typical posts on the topic!

 

[Cabinetman]

@Jacob absolutely, it’s playing with all the kit and anxsting about is it sharp enough, but then not having any time left to really getting stuck in and woodworking.
It shows up when you see on YouTube etc they have a toolwall with 42 different planes, it’s all so unnecessary, I grab my tool rack out of the cupboard at the start of the day and it’s very rare I need anything else, and that’s just a very basic kit of tools, nothing even very expensive.

 

[transatlantic]

Thanks for the replies. So basically, you're saying that the switch from the 1000 grit wheel to the honing wheel is too much of a jump?

So although you might get a polished edge (and more importantly sharp, dull chisels can be polished too) from the honing wheel, it won't be as flat as what you might achieve with stones, working up the grits and then a final strop, reducing the chance of curving the edge?

But this raises another question. A lot of carvers appear to use the Tormek just fine, and I'd argue that their requirements for a sharp tool is probably higher?

 

[Argus]

But this raises another question. A lot of carvers appear to use the Tormek just fine, and I'd argue that their requirements for a sharp tool is probably higher?

Absolutely.
You've hit the nail on the head.
Carvers require a superior edge to all their tools.
The ratio of time spent actually carving, to the time spent preparing a gouge's edge, vastly exceeds that of ordinary chipies

 

[D_W]

I've not seen a carver using a Tormek, but I'm sure there may be some. There aren't too many trade carvers left, but I know of three. One sharpens only with stones (militantly) and the other two use buffs almost entirely.

I think if you keep the wheel coarse, you'll find it to be a good neat and tidy grinder and if you ever need more speed, you can move on.

As to whether or not you can actually use it the way they show in videos (coarse wheel, grade to fine, and then honing compound - which is autosol as far as I can tell, just in a yellow tube) - you definitely can, but you'll be far ahead to use it and then one or two stones.

Carving tools are a little different than plane blades and chisels in that the name of the game with them is keeping them pretty much consistently sharp vs. having a longer interval.

You'll find with a Tormek, you won't get much advice from people who have never owned one, and sharpness will be based on how much and how fine of hand work you do.

Since the paste is autosol, you can actually use it on MDF ,softwood or medium hardwood, too - it's a bit aggressive for a hand leather strop (consider it on hardwood to work about as fast as an 8k stone, but it's finer).

 

[transatlantic]

Absolutely.
You've hit the nail on the head.
Carvers require a superior edge to all their tools.
The ratio of time spent actually carving, to the time spent preparing a gouge's edge, vastly exceeds that of ordinary chipies

Doesn't really answer why its good enough for carvers but not for planes/chisels though.

 

[D_W]

Oh S... here we go again, 8000? you’re all nuts, what are you doing, heart surgery?

I know it's not popular to hear sometimes, but I don't know of a professional cabinetmaker or carver who doesn't work finer than that. It just depends on what you're doing. If you play the cards right, the fine finishing can take up the slack where you'd be stropping and it doesn't really add time. However, the physical effort involved with hand tools is far less with a finer edge.

What's finer mean? A simple gold honing compound on a wood slip is finer working than an 8k stone (the gold compounds are usually about the same fineness in particle size, but on wood, they cut less deeply).

 

[D_W]

Doesn't really answer why its good enough for carvers but not for planes/chisels though.

I think starting with the assumption that there are lots of carvers using the three step tormek process is where things go off the rails.

 

[Adam W.]

Thanks for the replies. So basically, you're saying that the switch from the 1000 grit wheel to the honing wheel is too much of a jump?

So although you might get a polished edge (and more importantly sharp, dull chisels can be polished too) from the honing wheel, it won't be as flat as what you might achieve with stones, working up the grits and then a final strop, reducing the chance of curving the edge?

But this raises another question. A lot of carvers appear to use the Tormek just fine, and I'd argue that their requirements for a sharp tool is probably higher?

For carving, my process is a bog standard Tormek wheel to shape or re-grind a secondhand gouge - red Norton India - slate - strop.

With this I can carve regular construction grade spruce to a good finish and that's a very soft wood for carving indeed. If it carves spruce, it'll carve anything.

I have no idea what the grits are and I don't really care tbh., but the edge is good enough and I don't spend much time in a day to prepare edges, just once in the morning and re-strop or go on the slate for a polish as necessary.

I don't bother to inspect edges with any kind of magnifier or loupe, but I am anal about having absolutely no burr or chipped edges and no inside bevel, as it achieves nothing.

For joinery it's the same.

 

[transatlantic]

I think starting with the assumption that there are lots of carvers using the three step tormek process is where things go off the rails.

Thats a fair point!

 

[D_W]

For carving, my process is a bog standard Tormek wheel to shape or re-grind a secondhand gouge - red Norton India - slate - strop.

With this I can carve regular construction grade spruce to a good finish and that's a very soft wood for carving indeed. If it carves spruce, it'll carve anything.

I have no idea what the grits are and I don't really care tbh., but the edge is good enough and I don't spend much time in a day to prepare edges, just once in the morning and re-strop or go on the slate for a polish as necessary.

I don't bother to inspect edges with any kind of magnifier or loupe, but I am anal about having absolutely no burr or chipped edges and no inside bevel, as it achieves nothing.

For joinery it's the same.

a hone slate is similar to a trans ark or 8k waterstone. If you get rid of the burr completely (which you'll obviously notice if you don't), then they're all in the same ballpark.

hasluck's book on carving more or less says a soft ark or a washita followed by "emery" (so something like the same level), and a fine bench stone for someone looking to treat themselves.

It all gets to about the same place.

If you ever carve dry hardwood, you'll find some use for an inside bevel, even if just temporary. Not that most carve huge amounts of dry hardwood (like sculpture), but rather carved elements on hardwood.

 

[Adam W.]

I carve plenty of kiln dried oak and walnut and an inside bevel doesn't do anything extra.

 

[D_W]

I carve plenty of kiln dried oak and walnut and an inside bevel doesn't do anything extra.

Walnut isn't hard - the only walnut with any significant hardness is bastogne, and even that's not as hard as oak.

This is sort of a back and forth question that you'll hear from some carvers one way or another - pros - and it's almost as bad as the sellers vs. charlesworth jig or no jig thing - people think there is a right answer.

If you think you have the right answer and everyone else is wrong, you're in the weeds. The inside bevel does something very specific, by definition - it allows you to have a shallower outside bevel. It's a feel thing, whatever you like.

I don't like an intentional inside bevel, but probably carve something four times a year if you take out incannel gouge use (which is more of a patternmaker's tool). for carving eyes on the inside of planes or excavating the heel inside of a plane blank, an inside bevel on a firmer gouge is much appreciated.

 

[Adam W.]

Walnut isn't hard - the only walnut with any significant hardness is bastogne, and even that's not as hard as oak.

This is sort of a back and forth question that you'll hear from some carvers one way or another - pros - and it's almost as bad as the sellers vs. charlesworth jig or no jig thing - people think there is a right answer.

If you think you have the right answer and everyone else is wrong, you're in the weeds. The inside bevel does something very specific, by definition - it allows you to have a shallower outside bevel. It's a feel thing, whatever you like.

I don't like an intentional inside bevel, but probably carve something four times a year if you take out incannel gouge use (which is more of a patternmaker's tool). for carving eyes on the inside of planes or excavating the heel inside of a plane blank, an inside bevel on a firmer gouge is much appreciated.

Thanks for you expert opinion, I'll ignore it.

 

[D_W]

Thanks for you expert opinion, I'll ignore it.

Maybe something more objective for the OP would be worthwhile. Your opinion on inside bevels when you're an amateur student vs. professional carvers who use it is pretty meaningless. There were two high volume trade carvers on the SMC forum (both have probably moved on), and neither used anything but a buff.

This guy was one:
http://www.randallrosenthal.com/Pages/New Pages/contents.htm
The other does a large volume of architectural work. They weren't playing tool getting a degree, they're carving for a living.

Randall uses only a buff on both sides of the tool, using a coarse abrasive with the buff only if there is some damage (not stones, not a grinder). His tools are far sharper than what you describe. I don't remember what yundt said exactly except that he finishes with buffs. I do remember he was pretty dismissive of amateur carvers who would make definitive statements about things like use or non use of power carving tools or the comments from time to time about not using buffs.

http://woodworkingstudio.net/gallery2.html
I'm an amateur. So are you - you are a student. You should probably work from that mindset until you're paying your bills carving like professional carvers do.