Patio fence / fencing

[EdK]

Hi,
I'm starting a project to make/buy some fencing to enclose a patio.

 

[EdK]

I'd like to add a fence to the wall that runs down each side and then across behind the planter (leaving a gap where the fence is).

The wall is rendered block.

230mm thick and 980mm high.

The fence would be about 900mm high to maybe a metre - just to give a bit of privacy to the front patio. There is a lane just beyond the parking area (cobbled / setts).

To the left of the photo there is a dogleg back where I would make a door onto the patio from a shared grass path.

I thought about buying panels and posts and then fixing them to the top of the wall but part of me thinks that I would get a neater run if I make it myself. I think that the run length wouldn't coincide with a standard panel length, so I would be left with odd narrow cut panels.

Ideally I'd like to just fix the fence to the top of the wall - for neatness - but I am cautious that it might be better to run posts down the inside to give it strength.

Any advice or thoughts?
Thanks

 

[EdK]

Rough sketch:

 

[Jake]

How high will the fence be? Are those walls hollow blocks backfilled with concrete?

 

[Sachakins]

I'd run posts down back of wall, treated and protected with a membrane.
The turning momentum from wind pressure, if just bolted to the top, likely to seperate the top row of blocks from rest of wall during moderate to high winds. If its regular buffeting from gusts liable to break sooner rather than later.

 

[Orraloon]

As Sachakins says put posts down the back of the wall. There really is no practical way to fix it on top.
Regards
John

 

[ChaiLatte]

An alternative is to diamond drill 75mm diameter or 100mm diameter holes vertically into the wall and insert the posts into those holes (clearly square posts could be no greater across the diagonal than the diameter of the hole). You would need a good sealing compound to stop the water getting in, freezing and expanding, but a valance around the bottom of the post would help with this as well as making it look nicer (would conceal the hole).

 

[robgul]

For the timber part I would look at using horizontal boards with a small gap to allow wind to pass through - either a single skin on one side, or a double skin with staggered spacing (i.e. Yorkshire boarding that you see on large farm barns)

My own take on fencing for the whole of my garden (and one side of the driveway) used treated tile batten (the natural not blue or red stuff) - see pic (if it appears with a moire pattern that's your browser!!) It looks good and was inexpensive.

 

[Jake]

I'd run posts down back of wall, treated and protected with a membrane.
The turning momentum from wind pressure, if just bolted to the top, likely to seperate the top row of blocks from rest of wall during moderate to high winds. If its regular buffeting from gusts liable to break sooner rather than later.

That's not going to happen if they are well built with concrete fill and rebars up from the foundation. That's an 'if' though.

Dimensions aren't massive and there is a wall to fix to at one end and a 90 angle to brace it the other end, or two 90s the other side.

As others say, also depends on how much wind resistance there will be (hence me asking how high). I'd missed the OP saying less than a metre high, so that helps a lot too.

 

[EdK]

Thanks guys - yes, the fence will be 900mm to 1000mm high. The wall is solid block on decent foundations.

I guess I will have to empty the raised flower beds and then attach posts and then refill - no problem with that.

Frustrating that I didn't plan ahead a bit - doh!

Yes, I'm on the coast and it gets windy over winter...

I like the simplicity of just bolting posts into some sort of metal shoe on top of the wall but I understand that I'd be picking up wood strewn down the lane in the first winter gale.

I guess I could angle grind out a channel for the posts that would run up from the patio and then plaster over. But I guess it's as easy and neat to just run posts up from the patio and bolt to the wall. Then face each side with slats in a staggered fashion as suggested. I can play with the width of the slats to see what might look nice.

What sort of post dimensions would work? 100mm square? Would be about 2000mm tall (wall plus above wall).
For the slats - what sort of species is good and what thickness?
Worth getting it pressure treated or better to finish myself?

I have been using Sikkens Cetol and the Plus finish for the gate I made in oak and also oak benches and table outside but I think this might look a bit in your face for a whole fence.

thanks

 

[Sachakins]

I'd think 3'/75mm posts, bolted to back of wall to be sufficient.
Just ensure you bolt into blocks not the mortar. Also do t align your bolts all level, thar creates a stress line prone to breakage, stagger their height between posts to remove chance of a linear stress line along fixing points.

 

[Jameshow]

For the timber part I would look at using horizontal boards with a small gap to allow wind to pass through - either a single skin on one side, or a double skin with staggered spacing (i.e. Yorkshire boarding that you see on large farm barns)

My own take on fencing for the whole of my garden (and one side of the driveway) used treated tile batten (the natural not blue or red stuff) - see pic (if it appears with a moire pattern that's your browser!!) It looks good and was inexpensive.

View attachment 182336

I was going to suggest that but Barry Bucknell got there first!! As he did to JOG!!

 

[EdK]

Thanks guys, great info.

I've been thinking about it and am looking at doing the following:

1 - drilling holes vertically into the centre of the wall

2 - bonding in some stainless steel

3 - cladding the stainless steel in wood

4 - screwing boards to the posts

---

If I did drill holes, how deep would they have to be in order to support a fence 900mm tall?
I think that this depends on the steel that I use as the core support.
I initially thought about L-section steel but then found box section or round piping (or rod).

I think I can DIY it with an long drill bit if I use rod or piping - depending on the diameter. But if I need to use box section then I would have to get a pro to drill holes as I am a bit limited. Also on depth.

I guess I'm asking what the bare minimum would be and then what a decent solution would be and then what over engineering would be.

For example, I could DIY drill 30mm deep holes of 18mm and bond in some 15mm or 16mm solid stainless rod. Leaving 300mm sticking up.
Then I could route out a 300mm channel in two boards, glue them together and slip over the sticky up rod. This would give me a post to then attach slats to.

If 16mm rod isn't strong enough or 300mm isn't enough depth in the wall or depth into the post then I would need to rethink this.

It's an aesthetic choice as this is the front of the house.
Looking at WRC slats too. Not sure on cost at the moment but will get a local quote, probably be horrified and then rethink it

I have some oak I can use for the posts.

Not sure if I need 304 stainless or 316 stainless. I live right on the coast so maybe 316 is a better option but then with the s/s being clad, it might be fine with 304.

I've looked at box section and 20mm x 20mm with a 1.5mm wall in 304 is £12 per meter. Don't think I need too many posts.

22mm pipe with a 2mm wall in 304 is £15 p/meter.

16mm rod is:
304 - £22
316 - £25

Kind of getting there in my head - thanks for any input.

 

[Cabinetman]

Fraid you’ve lost me there, but if you mean to drill 30mm holes in the wall top and bond in the s/s it just wont hold - at all. Did you mean 300mm?

 

[Jake]

I don't think that plan sounds workable, you need more depth of fixing both down and probably up.

How about using something like this range for posts and then finding a way with some of the brackets to screw timber battens onto.

https://www.fhbrundle.co.uk/handrailing-and-balustrade/pro-railing-components

Backstays are common on railings to give more support, you could always have some of those off the face of the wall on wall brackets to brace a post bolted down to the top of the wall.

 

[EdK]

Yes - typo..

I meant 300mm.

So 300mm into wall and 300mm into post (total 600mm length of steel rod or pipe or box section).

i.e. my own version of this : https://contemporaryfencing.com/product/cequence-cedar-top-of-wall-posts/

The length (600mm) is arbitrary - I'm trying to work out what is suitable. 800mm (400mm into wall / 400mm into post) might be better?

Same with the steel.
I definitely think stainless steel is a good idea as I live on the coast.

But am unsure whether box section is better than rod or pipe - I don't know if there is much in it in terms of which one is stronger - I am not an engineer.

It seems fairly straightforward to make but I am not quote sure of the dimensions I need.

I measured the corner posts and then split the distance between them. Need twelve posts.
Thanks

 

[Jacob]

We just had some modern fencing fitted. It's the concrete post and gravel board style: https://www.buyfencingdirect.co.uk/fence-posts/concrete-posts
Very practical - the posts are dug in deep with special tool and fixed with dry "Postcrete". Everything else is loose. "Gravel boards" drop into slots in the posts and a variety of panel designs follow them.
Advantages; it's very stable and posts should last for many years, the gravel boards keep wooden panels off the ground. The panels are loose and can be maintained, mended , replaced, in situ or lifted out, really easily. Wide variety of sizes and patterns available.
Screwfix do a selection but there are lots of others with variations.
https://www.buyfencingdirect.co.uk/fencing-buying-guide

 

[Sachakins]

For hole depth best at at least 1 and half blocks deep will be fine. If your using ss tube, fix into holes with a resin made for bolt fixings, ie https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug...aptIgzY1cnxypvrWSYhoC51IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
, make sure you rough up the outside of the ss tube to give good adhesion, also back fill the tube with a filler and top off with a 25mm bung of silicone from a tube.