Party Wall Issues\Notice

[Dibs-h]

I've got my planning appication going through at the moment - hopefully have it in about a week.

The existing garage is to the boundary - this side of a double skinned dry stone wall - which is a party wall.

The replacement garage & workshop are also going up against the boundary wall. Now the CofE own the place next door - managed by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in York. Now comes the issue of a Party Wall Notice, etc.

Could this get complicated\expensive?

 

[PAC1]

I would invite the surveyor round for coffee. tell him what your plans are and see what they have to say. For him it is a chance to earn fees and second he needs to protect his client/PI insurance.

Are you actually doing work that could effect the party wall either directly or indirectly. For instance you may be building off the Party Wall or you may just be digging new footings along side the Party wall which could undermine the party wall.

The Party Wall Act is there to protect both parties and reduce disputes but it may or may not apply depending on the work to be done.

 

[Dibs-h]

I would invite the surveyor round for coffee. tell him what your plans are and see what they have to say. For him it is a chance to earn fees and second he needs to protect his client/PI insurance.

Are you actually doing work that could effect the party wall either directly or indirectly. For instance you may be building off the Party Wall or you may just be digging new footings along side the Party wall which could undermine the party wall.

The Party Wall Act is there to protect both parties and reduce disputes but it may or may not apply depending on the work to be done.

I'm emailing plans in the morning and then hopefully have a chat on the phone on Friday & see where it goes.

I'm digging new footings alongside the boundary wall (which is just a dry stone wall, somewhere in excess of 10m from the 'other' house) - but yes, there is potential for undermining. As I am digging to a level below the "foundations" of the existing party wall - my suspicion is that the PWA does come into play.

I've had a chat with my Structural Engineer chum who suggest that as the potential exists for underminning - for the footings on that side to follow a schedule as if we were actually underpinning, which seems logical.

Just alters the schedule somewhat.

I suppose my concern was that given the current climate - didn't want the Agents trying it on and generating fees for a laugh.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Escudo]

Hello Dibs,

I dealt with party wall issues last year at my office where I have been undertaking a small development project.

I had to deal with five neighbours, on all sides.

My architect and surveyor wanted to photograph and document the state of the complete boundary from both sides! This approach was recommended to ensure that if any damage occurred during excavation/construction that it could be established if the fault was there previously.

I expected difficulties with my neighbours (They had objected to the project when I obtained planning permission).

Employing a party wall specialist would have cost £1,000+.

I decided to save these fees and handle matters myself. I can check the letters I sent to my neighbours, as part of the requirements if this helps and can email these to you for guidance/ adaption.

I made sure I spoke to each neighbour and explained what work would be undertaken and when. I also promised to put right any damage that may occur. (This was a bold step, but in any event I would have been liable).

I remember getting the neighbours to sign an agreement of matters (This document had a special name, I can look this up) and took some photos of the boundary from my side.

If you are on good terms with your neighbours you can deal with the party wall issues easily.

Good luck and let me know if I can be of further help.

Cheers, Tony.

 

[Deejay]

Hello Dibs

There is a free downloadable booklet at

www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planni ... 133214.pdf

which might help.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Dibs-h]

Tony\Dave

Many thanks.

The neighbour is actually the local Bishop & his wife - lovely people, couldn't ask for nicer neighbours. They had no objection to the plans for the garage & workshop.

The issue (if it is one) is that the owners of the property are the CofE and the managing agents are this firm of Surveyors in a neighbouring city.

Whose signature\s is required - Lord knows. What's more is that there is a restrictive covenant on the strip of land, which thankfully the CofE Legal office wrote to me some years ago, saying they had no objection to a garage (etc) being built there. With one condition that the plans for it are sent to the Surveyors - I suppose to ensure the Bishop doesn't end up with some block of flats enxt door.

When I contacted the Surveyors a while agao to find out who to deal with - I was told a fee of several hundred pounds would apply for them to look over the plans and "approve" them. When I infomed her that the Head of Legal Services at the CofE hadn't mentioned any such thing and I had it in writing - she said they would waive the costs this time.

So what little experience I have of them - suggests they may take the p!ss. I suppose - might just copy the CofE's Legal Dep in on any correspondence should the Surveyors pull a fast one (or try).

As you said - I'm more than happy to give a written undertaking to make good any damage to the dry stone wall.

Part of me thinks I shouldn't have bothered - the Bishop would have said "just do it", knowing that I would rectify the damage should any occur.

But then ultimately the Bishop's come and go - the CofE is ultimately the neighbour and it's not worth the hassle of winding them up.

On a slight tangent - if a party structure has a foundation, that I understand, etc. but a dry stone wall has no foundations in the truest sense - just stones placed on the earth, so does the PWA still apply?

 

[PAC1]

The boundary wall whether with or without foundations is caught by the Act. You will need to comply with the procedure.

 

[Dibs-h]

The boundary wall whether with or without foundations is caught by the Act. You will need to comply with the procedure.

Thanks for clearing that up - it was probably more wishful thinking than anything else, on my part. 8)

 

[Dibs-h]

Update - just spoke to the chap in question at the Surveyors Practice who actually looks after the property for the Church and he's happy for everything to go down the informal route.

He's asked me to take pictures of both sides, forward on the details of the excavations alongside the boundary wall, and then let him know a week or so before digging starts, giving him the oppurtunity to visit should he want to.

No requirement for a formal PWA notice - thankfully.

He's also forwarding me details of a private sewer that apparently runs at the bottom of my garden - that I'm not connected to.

Thanks for the advice\comments chaps - just another 7 days till planning permission.

 

[MikeG.]

just another 7 days till planning permission.

If only it were as predictable as that!!!

Local Authorities will never work to that sort of accurate timetable........unless this is scheduled for a public meeting, in which case PP isn't to be taken for granted anyway!

Mike

 

[adzeman]

Hi Dibs-H I have been watching these posts with interest.
I work as a surveyor for a Local Authority and have to apply on behalf of the Council for a Party Wall Agreement. For example we need to replace a roof which is next door to an ex Council property sold under the right to buy scheme.

There are three approaches
1) As a good neighbor you should always inform your neighbor of your intentions and set out what you are proposing to do, whatever. Nothing upsets a home owner more than when the first awareness that something is happening is when workmen, waggons or scaffold turns up. If you are working within 1 meter of the party wall you are obliged to inform your neighbor in writing and if a gentlemans agreement can be reached both copies of the agreement should be signed without prejudice of what was discussed. In the event a disaster occurs the Judge will assess on who is acting reasonably.
2) Because of regulations for example ensuring say the fire breaks are installed correctly I have to act as the Councils Party Wall Surveyor this service is offered free to the neighbor and if agreeable a letter confirming this and is signed by all parties confirming this agreement.
This is the most frequent process.
3) We go down the full Party Wall Surveyor agreement I still act as the Party Wall Surveyor and deal with the neighbors party wall surveyor. The neighbor may be a landlord, developer, business or as in your case a church body acting as a charity.

Employing Party Wall Surveyors is expensive and if employing one should not be done on the cheap. As well has purchasing knowledge and experience you are also obtaining his indemnity assurance.
A member of the R.I.C.S. ensures this. Costs depend on the size of the job and I would take £1,000.00 as a minimum

 

[Dibs-h]

just another 7 days till planning permission.

If only it were as predictable as that!!!

Local Authorities will never work to that sort of accurate timetable........unless this is scheduled for a public meeting, in which case PP isn't to be taken for granted anyway!

Mike

The local authority here, on the vast majority of cases either grant or decline within the stated 8 week period. Mine is thankfully a delegated decision which means no comittee - so I can't see why my PP wouldn't be granted within the next 7 days - which is the 8 week period.

The whole system is online and I've tracked it thru all the various steps - the most awkard - potentially - was if the Conservation Area office had any issues. Thankfully the person didn't.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Dibs-H I have been watching these posts with interest.
I work as a surveyor for a Local Authority and have to apply on behalf of the Council for a Party Wall Agreement. For example we need to replace a roof which is next door to an ex Council property sold under the right to buy scheme.

There are three approaches
1) As a good neighbor you should always inform your neighbor of your intentions and set out what you are proposing to do, whatever. Nothing upsets a home owner more than when the first awareness that something is happening is when workmen, waggons or scaffold turns up. If you are working within 1 meter of the party wall you are obliged to inform your neighbor in writing and if a gentlemans agreement can be reached both copies of the agreement should be signed without prejudice of what was discussed. In the event a disaster occurs the Judge will assess on who is acting reasonably.
2) Because of regulations for example ensuring say the fire breaks are installed correctly I have to act as the Councils Party Wall Surveyor this service is offered free to the neighbor and if agreeable a letter confirming this and is signed by all parties confirming this agreement.
This is the most frequent process.
3) We go down the full Party Wall Surveyor agreement I still act as the Party Wall Surveyor and deal with the neighbors party wall surveyor. The neighbor may be a landlord, developer, business or as in your case a church body acting as a charity.

Employing Party Wall Surveyors is expensive and if employing one should not be done on the cheap. As well has purchasing knowledge and experience you are also obtaining his indemnity assurance.
A member of the R.I.C.S. ensures this. Costs depend on the size of the job and I would take £1,000.00 as a minimum

Thanks for that Mike - If the Bishop actually owned the property then we would have gone down route nbr 1, but he's a tenant effectively and the owner is the CofE - with management agents etc. That's where the uncertainty and the potential for spiralling costs came in.

Although it is a boundary wall covered by the act - it's also a dry stone wall, which I think is the pragmatic approach taken by the agents. Worse case is that it suffers - I'll end up paying to have that section (or if I have a Homer moment- all 14 metres) rebuilt. Which I am prepared to.

If however, the wall also represented the main wall of next door's house - I wouldn't be so pragmatic about it & as you say would be paying a good surveyor, so as to indemnify myself (to the degree possible).

 

[Deejay]

'He's asked me to take pictures of both sides, forward on the details of the excavations alongside the boundary wall, and then let him know a week or so before digging starts, giving him the opportunity to visit should he want to.

No requirement for a formal pwa notice - thankfully. '

Get it in writing.

Cheers

Dave

 

[adzeman]

The Party Wall Act is not complicated it used to be only in force in London when they had District Engineers The rest of the country had Building Control On the demise of the GLC London obtained Building Control the same as the rest of the Country which also got the Party Wall Notice. The Party Wall Notice is designed to cover all aspects of Construction from a simple extension to a multi storey office block. The way you treat a simple extension or roof replacement is totaly different to excavating an underground car park with large board piles against your building. It is all based on talking to your neighbor eliminating costly legal disputes and reducing costs by sharing them. My father used to be on various committees of the C of E for estate management and they have surveyors who would advise the Bishop. I believe they are called Glebe Surveyors. What are your risks? On a roof replacement this would be ensuring the fire brakes are in place. The appointed Surveyor would be present on their inclusion probably submitting a photograph dated and signed.

 

[Dibs-h]

'He's asked me to take pictures of both sides, forward on the details of the excavations alongside the boundary wall, and then let him know a week or so before digging starts, giving him the opportunity to visit should he want to.

No requirement for a formal pwa notice - thankfully. '

Get it in writing.

Cheers

Dave

Cheers Dave - after my chat with the chap at the surveyors office I got an email a few hours later, acknowledging my email to them (had sent them a copy of the plans) and saying that he would write to me within 7 days laying out the Church Commissioners position.

So hopefully it'll just be putting the conversation "in writing".

On a side note was having a chat with my Structural Engineer chum - in the end might end up with a reinforced slab rather than strip foundations - less digging by the boundary hole, so hopefully less chance of a problem.

Man - it never goes smoothly does it?