paring chisel

[Jacob]

Makes sense to me. Not the only way of doing a V but if that's what you do and you have the chisel, then why not use it?
Not sure about a cut made freehand in the scribed shoulder line - did he mean using it in place of a knife for the vertical side of the cut? I'll have a go and find out.
Not far removed from my discovered use - putting a bevel on newel post tops. I'm still surprised at what a clean cut it gave, better than any plane and a lot faster.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Makes sense to me. Not the only way of doing a V but if that's what you do and you have the chisel, then why not use it?
Not sure about a cut made freehand in the scribed shoulder line - did he mean using it in place of a knife for the vertical side of the cut? I'll have a go and find out.
Not far removed from my discovered use - putting a bevel on newel post tops. I'm still surprised at what a clean cut it gave, better than any plane and a lot faster.

I think he means that the tenon shoulders are marked out with a knife in the usual way, then the paring chisel used to deepen the knife line, following it to make the vertical part of the v-groove.

 

[Eric The Viking]

We're talking about an asymmetric V-groove I assume - vertical on the knife line and angled on the waste side. I struggle to see how you gain over a good marking knife, and I certainly don't have the grip to run it down a long shoulder in one go if Burrough means the angled side.

It sounds way too easy to **** it up...

E.

 

[David C]

I was shown this technique in 1972, by an old restorer, in Kendal.

Very slick. Seem to recall he used a wide bench chisel.

David

 

[mtr1]

Yes I understand the technique, but why use a paring chisel? Wouldn't you do the same thing with a bench chisel, I don't see the gain using a paring chisel. Perhaps just the authors preferred method, it's written so that must make it so.


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[Jacob]

2 reasons - first the very sharp edge (15º / 20º ish) gives a clean cut with less inclination to go off line, second the length - bench chisels could be too short for the workpiece and the length of a paring chisel gives steadier control.
Anyway I've tried it out and it works - vertical knife cut first, followed by chisel taking out the v in one neat pass. You have to guide the chisel carefully so it doesn't go into the square side of the v, which is where the length helps.
Also a narrow chisel might be good here - a reason to buy another one? God knows who would need a "set"

 

[bugbear]

Yes I understand the technique, but why use a paring chisel? Wouldn't you do the same thing with a bench chisel, I don't see the gain using a paring chisel.

Using the chisel in the "obvious" way, it needs to be long enough to get all the way to the far side of the work piece. It's being pushed along the 'V', cutting both faces.

BugBear

 

[richarnold]

I have a few long paring chisels, but I must admit they don't see that much action. The one time I would be lost without one is forming the long shoulder on gunstock door stiles. Their also great for plane making, especially when making wooden miter planes.

 

[Richard T]

edited for inexplicable double post ...

 

[Richard T]

It is a pity that your chisel is not as flexible as it might have been. I have two old 'uns; a Marples beveled edge and a straight edged Ward. They are both pretty bendy and I find that this makes a difference in use across wide areas - the angle of cut is adjusted not only with the height of the handle but with the amount of finger pressure mid - blade on the top. It is very subtle but I got the feel for it very soon after starting to use them.

Definitely more useful for me in carving territory than standard joinery I've found.

 

[G S Haydon]

That's a fairly obscure use of a paring chisel though, isn't it? I think if you look long and hard enough through books you could find a better use for one, probably of more use to a pattern maker. Nothing wrong with using them of course, I just don't see a use for them myself.
I think the last time I used mine, was to clear some waste out from a deep mortice and it was invaluable for this. It would of been some time before that, that I would of picked it up. So one use in maybe ten years, I had them so used them, but a sharpened long screwdriver would of done the same job...though not as pretty to look at.

Could it be a regional thing? They don't turn up at car boots in my area very often, just a theory of course.


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I'm with you Mark. I must admit I have done what BB does and quoted books which I must admit I do often regret. It seems if Max wrote about it then everyone was doing it?
I have books that mention the knife wall being for the beginner. All of it is tosh really, as long as you get a good result briskly that's all that matters. Oh, and your job is? Ah yes furniture maker, and you seem rather good at it. Thanks for sharing your perspective as someome who actually makes things. So Max did this to all his joints? Sounds like a waste of time for every joint and shoulder.
Sorry all for that being a bit ranty, It just bugs me a bit when someone who is rather good at there job is dictated to out of a book. Most likely the Max quote was ment to be helpful and informative but I often read short responses and a bunch of quoted text a bit rude. I have done that too and to those I did it to I say a big sorry!
Books are there to inform and enrich us, woodworking books have much contrasting advice based on the author and perspective, qouting them as holy is something I intend to avoid if at possible.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Interesting Idea`s on the use of paring chisels, who`s to know how many different ways there are to using them certainly not me.All I can say is how I was taught how to use them,what on ,the shoulders of tenons the base lines on dove tail joints.If you look at the pics of the two Swiss brothers what is important to note is they are both right handed so you look to the left hand.
The power comes from the right hand and the right side of the upper body but the left hand guides the chisel you can see it more when the younger brother uses his left hand to hold the chisel into the job and to stop it breaking away from the piece.
The way I was taught to hold the chisel is a bit different but basically to the same ends.I`ll try to describe it but if it does not make sense I may get a couple of pics of it tomorrow.
The side of the left hand rests on the piece the two bottom fingers (that's the little finger and the ring finger) bend to be at 90 degrees to the hand, the face of the chisel is pressed against the out side of these two fingers the index and middle finger are wrapped around the bevel side of the chisel.
You move your head to the side of the chisel and the thumb moves forward to contact the chisel you judge what is plumb and the thumb holds it there.

Like this you can move you body and the chisel will remain plumb,you move your upper body over the chisel bring the weight of it in to force and press down.Why would any body do it this way? Well why not you have a super sharp chisel and the chisel will cut right through the piece no trouble at all, and the length, its so your head is away from the job you can see what is going on and your head is not resting on the bench

 

[matthewwh]

I can see where you are coming from Graham but there's also the virtue of being open minded.

It's easy to forget that there are so many different ways of working with wood, there are some that find a way that works for them and then stop looking, there are others that are always on the lookout for people with a wrinkle they don't already have.

No disrespect to Mark, he's a finer craftsman than I'll ever be, but sometimes it's worth being reminded that just because you didn't take a particular road, it was still trodden flat by someone.

 

[mtr1]

Like I said in previous posts, if you like using them fill your boots. I think my point is that in reality you don't need them very often so don't bother buying them, make one for about £5.

Knife line, then chisel, then saw? That just seems like a lot of pissing about, why not just cut the thing with a saw? I am always looking for different ways to do a job neat and fast, not neat and slow. I don't see why a simple task needs to turn into a ritual, before you know it, all your rituals are adding up...you are taking too long to make something!

 

[Jacob]

.....
Knife line, then chisel, then saw? That just seems like a lot of pissing about, why not just cut the thing with a saw? I am always looking for different ways to do a job neat and fast, not neat and slow. I don't see why a simple task needs to turn into a ritual, before you know it, all your rituals are adding up...you are taking too long to make something!

Well yes I agree but maybe this quick v slash with a paring chisel would actually be neater and faster, on those occasions when you want something to be neater than normal? Your saw will settle into the cut with no effort and do a slight undercut at the same time (tooth set taking the first cut inwards a gnats).

Some seemingly over fussy procedures may prove themselves in the long term by reducing error. One obvious one is marking-up in general - better overdone in my opinion - every mark skimped is a mistake waiting to happen.

A lot of the old paring chisels (including the one short one I have) seem to be 1 1/4". Maybe this is because a wider chisel would do better cutting the line, held vertically, as Billy Flitch describes above?
Armchair theorising! :roll:

PS I don't have a prob with BB quoting from books as long as he doesn't insist that this reveals "correctness" etc. The books tend to give a limited snap-shot view, depending on the author's sources and experiences. They also perpetuate some common myths.

 

[bugbear]

I must admit I have done what BB does and quoted books which I must admit I do often regret. It seems if Max wrote about it then everyone was doing it?

A book (or in this case magazine article) is a guy writing. I don't think picking up a pen suddenly made Max Burrough ignorant, or dishonest, or removed his career's worth of experience.

He didn't claim that everyone was doing it - he was just writing of what he saw. To actually make strong assertions about universal practice (or indeed variations where practise was not universal) would need a careful, randomised, nationwide survey, and they simply don't exist.

The case of instructors (e.g. Ellis) writing books is slightly different. In that case two additional factors pertain; they may well be describing idealised practise, not usual practise, but the practised are national, since the syllabus and exam were centralised, so it's swings and roundabouts.

In the age of the internet, I'm sure we're all aware of the need to bear in mind the source of information when considering its quality and usefulness.

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

Matthew you are of course right and I am in full agreement, many ways to skin a cat and I don't deny the value of the method at all. I value both Mark & BB sharing the info.

BB, If I gave the impression the author was ignorant or I was removing his careers worth of experience then I am sorry this was not my intention and I am surprised you could draw that conclusion from my response. I did not say that he was claiming everyone did it, the comment was directed at you. Like I said your post was doubtless meant to inform but came across blunt and preachy . Doubtless that's more my problem and my reaction to certain things.

I appreciate Jacobs response, which like Marks give experience of the process and what he finds works for him. Quite clearly Mark's method is rather good, If my hot headed response has done anything I hope it has encourage people to check in on Mark's website, clearly the guy can cut a tenon shoulder rather well with or without a v joint formed by a paring chisel.

 

[condeesteso]

Just a few thoughts. The MB vee referred to in the quote seems to refer to a symmetrical vee (it mentions flipping the chisel over quickly). This would presumably place the following cut bang centre on the line, often not what you want? And was this practice a reflection of the thicker blades in older saws - current Japanese and premium saws (Two Lawyers for example) have very fine kerfs in comparison.
I do use paring chisels but not for doing that. I have occasionally cut an asymmetric vee to start, but rarely and mainly on very small or really critical cuts, and would use a standard b/e chisel for that.
But Richard T makes a key point - if you do use them then one of their key attributes is their slight but controllable flexibility. The other two are length (hence reach and more importantly control) and low angle.
They are excellent for paring end grain flush (dowels, keys etc), final skimming shoulders and cleaning internal corners, making small wedges...
Seems quite a few don't use them and that's fine of course - but to judge them fairly at least try a proper one. If all you want is a long chisel, then put a long handle on a standard one - but it won't behave quite like a paring chisel does. I recall Lie Nielsen used to do long handles for their socket b/e chisels, same idea but it's not just about length. And to keep a sense of scale I only have 3 and one's the newish Sorby so that doesn't count - just 2 then but I do like 'em.

 

[bugbear]

Just a few thoughts. The MB vee referred to in the quote seems to refer to a symmetrical vee (it mentions flipping the chisel over quickly).

The description seems perfectly compatible with the normal (obvious?) cut mark - vertical where the cut is, with a slope on the waste side. This kind of mark also requires the chisel to be flipped - indeed ANY 'V' requires the chisel to be flipped...

BugBear