Parf guide 3 anyone

[Spectric]

Hi all

Well have been making holes with a Parf guide 2 system and I now can see that things could be better. First the initial 3mm holes using the rulers for keeping the hole matrix square is fine, it works and delivers the required location holes. Now when it comes to actually cutting the 20mm holes you soon realise extraction is very important otherwise the waste just blocks the cutting process, but also I have found that it is different between two bits of MDF I have played with. One produces mostly dust whilst the other almost shavings so does anyone else have experiences like this and I don't think either of my MDF was moisture resistant which everyone else seems to use so could this be it?

Next I made some holes with my 1/4 Bosch router fitted with a Wealdons cutter, just holes for the sake of holes. This produced good clean holes much faster than the Parf guide Forstener bit, so why does the Parf guide system use that drilling jig and forstener bit? It is really clumsy when you actually sit down and take a good design perspective of it, once located on the 3mm pins the drilling action can easily impart a slight rocking motion unless it is clamped down. So rather than the drilling jig why not just have an aluminium bar that can be located in the 3mm guide holes and with a series of 30mm holes to take a router guide bush. Now once located you just plunge route all the holes and the router helps hold things in place rather than trying to rock it. Depending on the length of this bar you would only need 3mm holes at that length and not at every possible hole location so overall it would be much faster and easier. Also a length of aluminium with just CNC cut holes is less complicated than the drilling guide that requires the oilite bushed guides.

 

[marcros]

if you want to sell it on (now, or when you have used it), drop me a PM.

 

[robgul]

Having seen the Parfitt videos and the jigs being used in the flesh the logical answer to me is not to pay a load of money for the PARF jigs but just buy a CNC produced MFT top (loads of places will make them to your spec) - you get a "right first time" answer.

 

[Nelsun]

The trouble I've had using a router to make the pattern using a template is with getting the bit 100% concentric... and I have tried taking great care several times. Being even just half a hair off and it effects the accuracy. The Parf system has proved to be frighteningly accurate by comparison.

But I share your drilling woes. It does feel like more faffery than should be needed. I've only ever used MRMDF and it is a pain in the rear. Even with the UJK extraction hood it'll clog up 9 times out if 10. The pecking motion that is recommended is all well and good but I feel a better cutter would make a big difference too.

That said, I am resigned to doing it as recommended as the results are the best I've found.

FWIW, the reamer Axminster have released works brilliantly (and quickly!) to give you a perfect fit for both the UJK dogs (the guide, pup, anchor and super ones) and the Benchdogs quad-dogs. It shouldn't be needed when using their own bit to make the holes but I've experienced variances in the size of holes produced by different bits.

 

[Spectric]

The trouble I've had using a router to make the pattern using a template is with getting the bit 100% concentric... and I have tried taking great care several times. Being even just half a hair off and it effects the accuracy.

Have you tried using one of these Alignment Cone

Works every time for me.

 

[Nelsun]

^Yep, and every time I was sure it was done right (using a Festool OF1010 and their own cone so it likely was). It may have been the CNC template but I gave up wasting time trying to figure out what was wrong and got the PG2. Glad I did as it's deadly accurate and really doesn't take that long to do a top to the size you want... although the 20mm hole drilling is a pain!

 

[billw]

Valchromat doesn’t clog it, I was very cautious though, probably drilling each hole in 3 or 4 stages to constantly get rid of the waste. Extraction is indeed absolutely essential which is probably why the kit comes with the fitting rather than it being an optional extra.

 

[Padster]

I have recently built one and followed the guidelines on the PARF MKII, had a shop vac attached, used the pecking motion in 25mm MRMDF, and have absolutely no complaints or issues it has worked perfectly, I bought the jig so I can make a couple of different custom sized benches and replace the tops as and when they are required.

Padster

 

[Nelsun]

I think you do see better results from the bit in higher quality materials. I have access to one type of MRMDF here and none of your fancy-pants Valchromat - oh how I wish! The thing is, I have other forstner bits (e.g. Fisch, Famag & Zobo) that cut it better - but they don't fit the UJK bushing. Peter even chipped in on a discussion on the FOG and said your material choice can make a big odds. But, having other bits that make a better job of making holes, I reckon the UJK bit has room for improvement. It's not the end of the world, mind you, as it does work.

 

[Doug B]

Having the router bit perfectly concentric to the guide bush isn’t critical though obviously you want it as good as you can get it, the important part is to hold the router in the same position as you plunge cut each hole.
I have a simple mark on the base of my router which I always have facing me when I make a cut so that even if there is a discrepancy between the cutter & guide bush every hole is in the right position.
I use a simple template & I can’t imagine an easier or cheaper way to make an MFT top than with a router that is if you haven’t got a CNC.

 

[Nelsun]

That'll work but, in my case, the template sometimes needs turning 90 degrees and... well... it's more faffery than I care for. I'd rather take the time and be sure it's coming out right with little room for operator error. The ability to accurately put holes where you want them is also a feather in its cap - along the top of vice faces, hole patterns for Kapex feet and bolt holes for example.

That said, it sure is a whole lot quicker with a router and template.

 

[Spectric]

Hi all

Well I must be doing something wrong because on my first real attempt all the holes aligned on a straight edge in the x axis but on the far side they were offset by approx 0.25mm in the y axis and so the drilling jig fitted over the 25mm alignment dogs in one direction but not the other. Second attempt just very accurately replicated the first, exactly the same misalignment. For my next attempt I am going back to basics having had a rethink and align everything off a common datum of holes in the X axis and only use the drilling guide in the same direction, ie not rotating 90°.

 

[Nelsun]

If they're not coming our right then I'd get on to Axminster customer service which is usually top notch. I have a dim memory of someone having similar problems over on the FOG and *I think* it was down to a dodgy batch of rulers which were duly replace FOC.

 

[Padster]

Hi all

Well I must be doing something wrong because on my first real attempt all the holes aligned on a straight edge in the x axis but on the far side they were offset by approx 0.25mm in the y axis and so the drilling jig fitted over the 25mm alignment dogs in one direction but not the other. Second attempt just very accurately replicated the first, exactly the same misalignment. For my next attempt I am going back to basics having had a rethink and align everything off a common datum of holes in the X axis and only use the drilling guide in the same direction, ie not rotating 90°.

The only time I've heard this was John McGrath on Man in Shed (you can check the vid) - he corrected it as he was checking as he went through, he thought it must have been something he did and it did indeed prove to be that way and he said as much after being contacted by Peter himself, and issuing an update video. The issue was to do with using extended holes from the initial reference, if you are going to do this you need to start from the mid-point out or it goes out of alignment by a mm or two.

HTH

Padster

 

[billw]

Having read the instructions I'm not sure how starting from the middle helps much unless you have a REALLY big surface to cover.

 

[Spectric]

I am going to have another go tommorow but I know all the obvious problems I have avoided, ie ensuring pins are properly located in the rulers and I even clamped things down to ensure no movement. This time I aim to check more often if for no other reason than to locate where the problem lays.

 

[NormanB]

Having read the instructions I'm not sure how starting from the middle helps much unless you have a REALLY big surface to cover.

That is it exactly. If the bench is longer than the ruler, the instructions (and Peter) recommend staring the layout from the centre rather than an edge to avoid accumulating errors.

 

[Doug71]

It would be nice to own a Parf guide but considering the cost, the amount of use it would get and the number of problems I hear people have using it I find it impossible to justify.

 

[Spectric]

Ok, my third attempt I have something that I can accept, you will not get perfection unless you use a machine with numerical readout or a CNC and you have to remember that it is wood we are working with. So what did I do different, well I put the first row of 3mm holes along the rear X axis followed by both ends on the Y axis using the right angle rule(6,8,10) as before but then I also put another row in the middle on the Y axis using the same right angle rule(6,8,10). Now I had three location points for my ruler as I did the rest of the rows. I then drilled the 20mm holes and clamped the drill guide whenever possible. I suppose it would be worth trying making as many of the Y axis colomns using the right angle rule(6,8,10) because they would all be correct to the first row.

I can accept errors providing I know why they are there so even with a lot of care and time I still got some errors that need to be explained. I think the errors must start with the initial 3mm drilling process. I drilled 6 holes in a bit of scrap mdf using the ruler and drill guide, then got six 300mm lengths of welding rod and put it in the holes. Now when you look at the rods they are not all at 90° to the board, 3 were very close, 2 with noticable lean and one well something went wrong. So looking at the video, the drill Peter uses is one of them little cabinet makers drills by Festool, I am using a full size Makita which is heavier and more bulky so could be contributing to the problem. So another path to look at, I don't have a little drill but may try with a flexable drive.

This would explain why you can sometimes easily insert the pins into the ruler and sometimes you need to fiddle with it. The problem is that we are drilling a matrix of holes and any error even if very small will accumulate. But the underlying principle and system is very good although a system using a router rather than a drill I believe would be far better.

Anyone tried this jig MDF Pro Jig to make Replacement Perforated Festool Type MFT /3 - LP Top

Locate and rout all the holes then offset and rout more holes, seems very easy and well priced, anyone any experience or further info?

 

[PerryGunn]

Anyone tried this jig MDF Pro Jig to make Replacement Perforated Festool Type MFT /3 - LP Top

Yes, that's the one I used - I posted about it in another thread... it was a couple of posts but I've combined them below

---

I used the cncdesign jig to make my MFT top, to my mind it has one big advantage over the Trend jig - it's larger at 2 rows of 11 holes verses 2 rows of 5 holes and, to quote Trend 'When using a jig there will be a cumulative error that cannot be avoided when indexing the jig on existing holes.' so the less you need to have to move the jig, the better.

I'm a hobbyist and I had a couple of reasons for making my own MFT top rather than buying one
- I wanted it slightly larger than a standard MFT and, due to floorspace constraints, build it into a wall-mounted fold down table that incorporated dog & fence storage
- As a learning experience to see if I could...

I thought about trying melamine-faced MDF or plywood for the top but settled on 22mm Medite MR MDF which I sealed with multiple coats of sanding sealer before machining

It's come out accurate enough for anything I'm likely to need - dogs in the holes line up perfectly in both directions with a straight edge and the rows/columns are nice and square according to the largest square I have (600 x 300). At some point, if I'm bored, I might try the 5 cut test to see just how square it is.

A few observations on the process...

Use dust extraction.

I spent time fine-tuning the hole size using aluminium tape on the guide bush and making test cuts on scrap MDF. Some tape is supplied with the jig but I used a thinner tape that I already had
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07M7DBCF5
It may be a peculiarity of my router (Trend T11) but, initially, I was finding that the holes tapered slightly towards the bottom - not much but enough that a test hole that was a snug fit inserted from the top required a lot of effort to insert from the bottom. I eventually worked out that this was due to the tiny amount of play in the plunge bars and if I routed the holes with the router plunged all the way down and used the lock lever, it removed the play and the hole sizes were identical top & bottom.

When routing the holes you have to be careful about spoil getting caught between the guide bush and the side of the jig hole as this will deflect the bush (it's only a small amount but when you're tuning a hole size to ~0.1mm, it makes a difference). I adopted a technique of
- plunging in the centre of the hole
- small circular motion to enlarge the hole a bit
- raising the router bit all the way up
- tilting the router back/forward to allow the dust extraction to remove the spoil that was still in the jig hole
- plunge router bit back through the hole to full plunge depth
- lock the plunge lever
- 3-4 circular motions of guide bush around jig hole
That sounds like a faff but it takes longer to explain it than it does to do and, after the first few, it's just routine.

Before moving the jig, check every hole with a dog just in case... I had 4-5 that I had to make another pass on, possibly because a bit of spoil had not been sucked away

Each time you move the jig wipe any accumulated dust from the guide bush

The jig comes with two alignment 'pins' that locate it to the previously routed holes, but it has 3 alignment holes that can be used (left/right/centre) so I used the two supplied pins in the left/right holes and a short dog in the centre hole as an additional alignment pin

I made sure that I clamped the jig in each new position rather than just relying on the alignment pins to hold it in place.

I used a trim router with a 45deg chamfer bit to chamfer the holes slightly - I don't know if there's an 'ideal' size for the chamfer but I used the test holes to get something that looked OK to me